this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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russia can end this whenever they want by restoring Ukraine's territorial integrity, if they think the US is benefiting so much from it at their expense. The US is just making it much harder for russia to reach its maximalist goals: to conquer Ukraine. One of those is a war crime, the other one is supporting international law.
The US isn't making it much harder, it's making it pay.
Indeed, making russia pay for trying to conquer a sovereign country by helping that country defend itself.
This is a little ahistorical.
Wouldn't happen if you didn't try to conquer countries
I don't understand what you're trying to say.
International law is when you support a government coup to replace the pro-Russia government with a pro-EU/pro-NATO government.
International law is when russia does not annex Crimea because of the unfavourable internal affairs of its neighbour. You know, your power ends at "these" borders and from there to here you can't threaten the Ukrainian President.
The coup government illegally removed the previous president, so they don't get to complain when Crimea illegally votes to join Russia.
Yea, well, did you hear about how the President escaped and the Parliament voted to destitute him. And when you invade Crimea to do a mock referendum, that's awesome international law. Not even Iran and China recognize the annexation of Crimea, because you can't invade a country and referendum an annexation unilaterally.
The parliament had no constitutional authority to vote to expell him without an impeachment hearing, which he never got. It was an illegal move.
The referendum in Crimea is as legitimate as the acting president of Ukraine.
And tankies love it when America invades another country because that country didn't democracy correctly.
I don't support Russia invading, just so we're clear. I can just see the rational progression of events from A to Z
Why do you think Russia invaded? Cuz Russia bad? lol
Ukraine is literally on Russia's boarder, and Russia is not even a regional empire - it's a jumped up gas station. Russia is vulnerable and knows it, so it lashes out like any animal backed into a corner. Now we have another forever war, this time in Europe.
Then why are you using Russia's talking points?
Do you agree there is a difference between "reasons" and "justifications"?
I think Russia's reasons for invading are real and must acknowledged to end the war. I don't think those reasons justify the war.
Get it?
“I think the US’s reasons for invading Iraq are real and must be acknowledged to end the war.”
Does that clarify what I’m talking about to you at all?
The US's reasons for invading Iraq weren't fucking real. They made it all up!
Does that clarify what I'm talking about to you at all?
Yes, and that’s exactly the point I was making about Russia’s reasons. The NATO already had troops in all of the Baltics following the invasion of Crimea. (Look up Operation Atlantic Resolve) Every single US troop there was already closer to Moscow than any potential Ukrainian base could ever possibly hope to be.
You're skipping some parts of the history. Before Operation Atlantic Resolve, there was the illegal removal of the previous anti-NATO president and the installation of a pro-NATO president, and that was the trigger for the invasion of Crimea and the illegal referendum to annex the territory in the first place. If you care to look, there's a pretty clear through-line of tit-for-tat that keeps happening.
You keep skipping parts of the history. You bring up that Viktor Yanukovych’s removal was illegal and not that the court’s removal of the 2004 amendments were, themselves, illegal. (Somehow the people who were supposed to implement the constitution were above it?) or that the president went against the Legislature’s will by denying the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, which again, they had a right to write and approve the treaty…
Was the court striking down those amendments unconstitutional? I'm under the impression that's a power that's granted to them and not really able to find proof that it was an illegal move. Can I get a cite for that? I'm seeing political opponents of the move saying that, but not any unbiased sources. This article from the Kyiv Post mentions a member of an opposition party's opinion, but that's it.
EDIT Although reading the Venice Commission, I'm getting the impression Ukraine's constitutional court is a clown show. Maybe it was illegal, maybe not, who knows! It seems the Court's authority isn't clearly defined. As someone from America, that sure fucking sounds familiar!
If by illegally remove you mean he was passing laws that would have made him a defacto dictator which in turn triggered protests that he violently put down triggering massive protests causing him to flee then yes.
I mean literally, they removed him without following the constitutional process. They just kinda did it - hence, a coup.
He was literally voted out by their parlament by like 300 to 0 votes and the only country calling it a coup was Russia.
So? It was still an illegal move by their parliament - he wasn't formally impeached. That'd be like the American House and Senate voting to remove the President without having impeachment proceedings. It doesn't matter how overwhelming the majority is, the constitution is still supposed to be a legal document that hast to be followed.
Also iirc the reason there were 0 votes against is because 170 abstained from the vote, because it was illegal.
Ah yes, the revolution to overthrow the Russian puppet who gave the government dictatorial powers so that it could arrest anyone they wanted for years at a time without a trial, was a bad thing.
I think they just should've accepted their fate while their country became a dictatorial hell hole.
Bro, you're just straight up evil.
Revolutions are illegal 🙄
Alright but what would guarantee Russia's safety after they do that? It's obviously not in their interest. What they want is to negotiate a peace treaty, which is why they are holding their defense line so strongly until their opponents are exhausted.
If a coup happened tomorrow in Canada and the new government was suddenly allying itself with China and asking for Chinese military bases to be placed along the border with the US I guarantee that America would invade Canada within the year to "protect itself" against the "Chinese invasion."
When you're a country on the other side of the world and you're trying to put troops in place to surround a country you've arbitrarily decided is your "enemy" then that's a clear, open threat.
Would you have believed Russia saying that their troop buildup on the border of Ukraine in 2021 was "defensive?" If not why would you expect Russia to believe the same of nato? Russia at the time was claiming there was no intent to invade, just like NATO does.
America wouldn't invade they would follow the Cuba missile crisis playbook: destabilize the regime, support opposition factions, and institute economic sanctions. Russia is the only one that has a recent history of invading neighbors.
NATO troops have been in Poland and the Baltics since '04 and there were positive relations between Russia and NATO during the war on terror period. Relations started to deteriorate when Putin decided to brand NATO as anti-Russian in late 2000s. Back then he saw the writing on the wall that a majority of Ukrainian people wanted to align more with the West which threatened his bloc.
Russia has a long history of invading its European neighbors and an unabashed imperial ambition (pathetic shithole though it is). When was the last time a nato country attacked russia? Edit: you gonna answer the question, or just downvote like a bitch?
The US already had bases closer to Moscow and St. Petersburg than Ukraine! As soon as Russia invaded Crimea, the US stationed a shitload of troops in the Baltic states that are part of NATO. Every part of Ukraine's further from Russia's center of power as compared to the deployments of Operation Atlantic Resolve.
There's not a damn thing that Ukraine would do to benefit the US militarily other than securing non-Russian nuclear plants to provide power to the EU. Russia is going after a war of retribution and hydrocarbon imperialism for leaving it's sphere of influence.
You forgot the part where the Us first needs to annex Quebec a few years earlier.
Nuclear Arms. The ones they accepted from Ukraine in return for security guarantees. Which they violated when they took Crimea already.
How on your mind do you think attacking Ukraine guaranteed their security? Like how was that a “oh this will make us more secure move” By driving all other Neighbors into NAtOs nuclear shields ?
That’s big brain energy right now. I’m afraid of the entire neighborhood, especially the guy next door who gave me their shotgun in exchange for safety 2 decades ago , let me rape their wife and abduct their children and annex their house, that’ll show the neighborhood, especially if I manage to show that I barely can take the front lawn before getting spanked.
What I heard were rumors that the "UN" could sort of hold Ukraine's occupied territories "in escrow" as a DMZ buffer, but it's not a final solution (we know how these handovers have turned sour in the past), because eventually you'd have to divide it, or create a new country...the essential is that russia does not get rewarded for its aggression with territory to brag about in the history books and that there is no chance that any native pro-russian Ukrainian in the buffer zone suffers reprisals...