this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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And how might that one be?
Because from an outsider perspective he seems to be doing alright and anecdotally a Ukrainian man I know says the people around him like Zelenskyy
Plenty of russian likes putin too, they are victim of propaganda. I'm sure these Ukrainians between 18 and 60 who want to leave the country but they can't don't like their government much.
I've worked with some of them, and as far as I can tell whilst they don't like the situation they're in, they want to kick the shit out if Russians (putting it softly) more than they want to escape.
Turns out invading a country can instill some pretty heavy anger in the populace... Who knew?
I'm not going to take a hard stance here cause I don't think a side by side comparison with Putin is a useful conversation to have, but I want to point out a couple things that may add some nuance to what you've heard before.
Having spent SIGNIFICANT time in all parts of ukraine I can safely say they are a varied people. Russian speaking Ukrainians and non Russian speaking I heard numerous pro ussr and pro west ideas. Non of what you said points to zelensky being as bad as or worse than put in. Pretty much everyone likes him regardless of personal political feelings.
Sure, like I said I don't think it's really important who is "worse", it's not a useful topic of discussion.
I did want to make a couple of counterpoints though
Careful with that YouTube channel. Patrick Lancaster may be American, but everything he's produced recently is essentially pro-Russian propaganda. Many (most?) of his videos are either misleading or staged.
Can you substantiate that? I'm only tangentially familiar with his work. He's certainly softer on Russia than other sources, but is he doing more than bringing "balance" to the conversation?
Watching the clip I showed, I could suspect that he may be leaving out other interviews he did where people were more pro-ukrainian, but at the same time, the woman in the video claims that about 80% of the town supports Russia, which would line up with what I previously understood about the politics of their region.
I don't particularly care that much about the guys personal politics, and I haven't had that much exposure to them, since my only interest so far has been these two interviews which I personally interpret as primary sources. I would in now way claim that these two people speak for anyone besides themselves, but what they both say is loosely backed up by the data I've seen.
Fair question. First, I would not characterize what he does as being softer on Russia to bring balance. Some of his videos have been exposed as just being lies. That casts doubt on the rest, since ultimately you kind of just have to trust him. And before someone pops up to complain about Ukraine, yes Ukraine engages in propaganda as well. I am only cautioning against considering this source as being trustworthy.
I could try to give a rundown of him, but it would look a lot like his Wikipedia article so I will just point you there.
Fair, I'd be interested in examples, since I mostly know of him from seeing people talk about him on Lemmygrad or wherever (who have their own issues, of course). I can go find them myself though, I appreciate you giving me a general idea about what's up wtih the guy.
I do appreciate him bringing these interviews on the ground, but I always want to do my best to account for bias and spin, even for things like that that appear straightforward. I haven't even watched the second half of the video cause I figured it would feature him more (maybe that assumption was incorrect idk).
Definitely sounds like a crackpot who shouldn't be taken too seriously from Wikipedia though. I just think calling something "propaganda" is a shallow criticism on its own.
I watched through one of his videos. If memory serves, it was him wandering around Mariupol right after the Russians finished turning it into rubble. He happened upon a man who told him how wonderful the Russians were. All this in what were supposedly the ashes of his hometown. It was the most transparently staged bullshit I've ever seen. Probably a Russian soldier with a few scripted lines.
I think a lot of the folks on Lemmygrad consume a lot of Russian state media and media that draws from Russian state media. Lancaster is regularly featured on Russian state media, so it makes sense that they would be passing around his content.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/drhgjxSJG6M
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
So, Ukraine was invaded (twice) by Russia with no provocation... but he brought the war? Seems like Russia brought the war and he's doing right by the Ukrainian people by defending Ukraine.
And by all means, please list all the ways the he is a Nazi collaborator and traitor to the Ukrainian people, with sources please.
Once on invitation of Crimea to save them from the fascist regime and the second time after 8 years of negotiations to try to avoid war, in the face of an ethnic cleansing of its national allies too. Sure, Russia brought the war. Where do you get your information from? The news?
The guy is constantly pictured standing with Nazis.
He literally wears Nazi iconography and is leading a country with an ultranationalism rooted in Nazism. Have you never heard the expression "Slava Ukraine?"
So there is overwhelming evidence of ethnic cleansing? I have yet to see any. In the age of cell phones, there would be so much evidence.
I'm sure there are some people in Russia asking the United States to remove the dictator Putin from power... Yet, the United States didn't invade Russia. You don't get to just invade a sovereign country because a very small number of people asking.
That's your evidence of being the Nazi collaborator flags in the background? Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis trying to free Ukraine from the soviets, as some fought with soviets to free Ukraine from the Nazis. Both were fighting to free Ukraine. Finland joined the Nazis, not because they agreed with the Nazis but to fight against the invading soviets.
Sadly there are many places that have neo-nazis, but they are in the minority. Neo-nazis exist in places hurt by the Nazis greatly, like Poland, France, Britain and even Russia.
Here is Putin standing with a Russia Nazi: https://romea.cz/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fromea.cz%2Fapp%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F02%2Futkin.jpg&w=1200&q=75
And you just attack a slogan that basically says victory to Ukraine from the invaders? Now you're not even trying
What do you think it looks like? You want a picture of the language laws?
Yeah that's why they got Ukraine to threaten them and start a war, to "weaken Russia".
Ahistorical Nazi apologism now. Look at yourself. Full mask off.
Again, Have you never heard the expression “Slava Ukraine?” It's not a minority that's repeating that.
That's fake. The guy on the left is not the same guy as the one on the right. This has been debunked. It's one of only two photos in existence like this. The other is a Russian general getting an award wearing a Ukrainian coat with a totenkopf on it. Wherase there are literally thousands of pictures of Ukrainian Nazis.
You're finished now Adolf.
Please list some laws.
What was the threat against Russia? Were they going to invaded Russia? Ukraine barely had an army. Ukraine gave up it's nuclear weapons in the 1990s in exchange for security protections, signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders (Budapest Memorandum). Putin broke that treaty and is trying to create his dollar store version of the Soviet union by invading other countries.
So, explaining historical context is apologizing for Nazis?
Slava Ukraine is said by Ukraine, I never said it wasn't. But you never explained how that makes them Nazis. If Ukraine was invading other countries, it might have a different meaning but it's just them defending their country. If their slogan was "heil Hitler" you might have a point.
Wow, thousands of wanna-be neo-Nazis!!! Out of a population of 43 million. So, like .002% of the population!!! You're right, that's not a minority!
I say the picture of zelenskyy is fake... If I just say it, it must be true.
Okay, Stalin. So, you just resort to name calling... I can too. Hitler and Stalin were monsters and it's sad to see that Putin is acting like a mashup of the two of them.
Really? You want their codifications? The titles of the laws? JFC, the dishonesty on display. You're just trying to give me busywork because you have no comeback. Are you trying to tell me that you deny that these laws exist?
Constant big talk about joining NATO and installing nukes in Ukraine, eliminating the possibility of MAD. Ethhnic cleansing on its doorstep of ethnic Russians.
Putin didn't break any treaty, Russia legally invaded Ukraine after he lost a motion in the Duma about the recognition of the breakaway regions. Once they were officially recognised Russia had to protect them from Ukraine's Nazi forces.
If you're "explaining" in order to make excuses for them, yes.
It's a Nazi slogan, used by Nazis. next question?
You think Nazis are only Nazis if they're invading somewhere? Weird idea. Anyway they were invading the autonomously declared regions in Donbas. A people who wanted self-determination to escape the threat of Nazi ethnic cleansing.
Thousands of pictures. Anyway, nobody said that everyone in Ukraine was a Nazi. The state is fascist and has invented holidays honouring Nazis and renamed streets and stadiums after Nazis.
Stalin defeated the Nazis. Ukraine has never forgiven the Russians for that.
You're the one making claims of laws that are responsible for ethnic cleansing, so you should be able to provide some examples.
There are no nukes in the Baltic states (they are already NATO members but Ukraine isn't), why would they put nukes in the Ukraine? Plus the US and Russia could already hit anywhere in the world already. So, it's a made up threat to try to justify an invasion.
Slogans can have different meanings depending on context. If Ukraine was invading other countries, then Glory to Ukraine might sound like they are superior but if they are defending it sounds like they will be victorious. Plus, Slava Ukraine sounds more like a the Soviet union slogan "glory to the motherland."
Man, if you think that historical context are excuses. You could never read a history book then... Which might actually explain a lot...
Putin did break the treaty he invaded the boarders of Ukraine. You can't illegally invade a country then have an illegal vote to declare a breakaway regions under an military occupation.
Stalin defeated the Nazis then proceeded to kill millions of people... And you wonder why so many former Soviet countries want to join NATO for protection. One monster replaced with another.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/25/ukraine-adopts-law-enforcing-use-of-ukrainian-in-public-life
https://twitter.com/Kanthan2030/status/1632366929745940480
https://twitter.com/RueDaungier/status/1650503466706452484
The point is not to put nukes there, the point is to threaten Russia to provoke a war. It worked. Why expand NATO at all? The USSR doesn't exist anymore, it should have been dismantled.
Nazi slogans are Nazi slogans regardless of context. If you start chanting "Sieg Heil"do you really think the excuse that you haven't invaded anywhere is going to wash? Besides, Ukraine invaded the breakaway republics and killed thousands, including civilians while chanting these Nazi slogans.
Stalin was by no means perfect but this millions of people crap is just ahistorical yank propaganda that you've been brainwashed with.
So name a law BEFORE the invasion (2014)... Remember you are trying to justify the illegal invasion. It looks like the stuff you list was in response to the invasion.
Let me think... Why would countries want to join NATO. could it be Moldova, Georgia, Abkhazia... Seems like there is a need. Seems like Putin is trying to rebuild the USSR.
Okay, the Soviets used Nazi slogans, got it
Wow, Stalin not that bad? He's not as bad as Hitler but still close. Stalin was just over a longer span of time. To the point the Soviet union even tried to De-Stalinization the Soviet union. My parents grew up under Soviet oppression and it was not a good time.
Name a law before the Nazi coup overthrew Ukraine and started the ethnic cleansing. Well done, you've managed to move the goalposts so far that nothing makes sense anymore. Russia was invited into the independent Autonomous Republic of Crimea by its leadership in order to protect it from the Nazis after the American coup.
The vast majority of actual citizens of countries all over Europe are opposed to America's war in Ukraine, as opposed to their American influenced leadership.
This is just American propaganda. Your parents' experience is at odds with most peoples'. Almost everyone who lived in the USSR preferred it to what came after.
The goalposts are firmly intact. You said Russia had to illegally invade because ethnic cleaning... But you haven't provided any examples... You know, before the invasion, that would justify it. Hell, you haven't even proved that the government are Nazis. You can't just scream "NAZI!" and invade a sovereign country. You have a picture with Ukrainian Insurgent Army flags in the background and claims of ethic cleaning that came after the invasion.
Support for NATO has gone up since the second illegal invasion of Ukraine 2022 (support was lower before the second illegal invasion, poll from 2019 but it was still positive): https://www.pewresearch.org/global/?attachment_id=51128
Most European countries feel Russia is responsible for the war: https://images.app.goo.gl/SN8muD2Uwz9Z9RgU7
You can't have a vote during a military occupation... And you can't invade a sovereign country because you are popular there.
So, my parents were unique? Why haven't most former ussr countries tried to get closer with Russia? With the exception of Belarus, which has a dictator. Many countries fought to be in NATO so they wouldn't have to be under Russia again.
Hell, even Putin's quote, "Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains."
Well I obviously didn't say that because Russia's invasion was legal. It's telling that you feel the need to try to put words in my mouth though.
The invitation to come and protect them from Nazis by an autonomous republic isn't enough justification for you? The illegal coup? The illegal Nazi coup funded by the US that then killed protesters with snipers and started a civil war? The US went on to pillage the economy, bribe officials to give their kids crooked jobs (Biden for example). And you're asking why Crimea would be justified in asking for protection from these monsters?
Most Europeans want peace. The US and its puppets do not.
This Pew Research poll from 2014 found that 91% of Crimeans considered the referendum free and fair, and 88% felt Kyiv should accept the results.
One, Ukraine was not a sovereign country, its sovereignty and its democracy were overthrown by America's Nazi goons.
Why would they? Russia is a shithole. The USSR had a better standard of living than the USA in many cases.
Nobody wants THE USSR back, but more and more people want A USSR back.
You said a lot of stuff with no evidence provided. And again, you can't just scream "NAZI" with no proof.
In fact, I declare that russians are Nazis!!!!! They do seem to act a lot like Nazis
"The invitation to come and protect them from Nazis by an autonomous republic isn't enough justification for you? The illegal coup? The illegal Nazi coup funded by the US that then killed protesters with snipers and started a civil war? The US went on to pillage the economy, bribe officials to give their kids crooked jobs (Biden for example)."
Ukraine is sovereign country and fully recognized by Russia in the Budapest Memorandum.
So, if the Freedom of Russia Legion goes into Belgorod and holds a vote... Then they can legally invite Ukraine in? And Russia will just lay down their arms?
Let's ask the Chechens how their independence movement is going... I'm sure the Russians fully supports that
I'll provide you with all the evidence you like. Just so I'm clear, what is it about the Ukronazis you deny exactly? Their existence or what?
That's just what you're hearing in the news. It's full of propaganda targeted at you.
Ukraine was not a sovereign country after the USA couped it. They ousted the democratically elected leader and then ignored the democratic vote that refused to accept the puppet the replaced him with. You can read about that here in this very well sourced write up, there are many like it. The part about the US ignoring the vote and forcing their puppet in is in part 2.
No I'm sure Russia wouldn't accept that, same as Ukraine not accepting Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk's choices. But if that happened and Russia had been ethnically cleansing Belgorod by banning languages and religions and shelling civilians, then I'd be siding with Ukraine on the matter.
Look, I'm a communist. I don't like Russia. But I understand its motivations and they're not what we're being brainwashed with in the western media here. It could stage 20 more Ukraines and still not be as evil as the west and the USA in particular.
I am very left wing and still am to this day, I would say I'm a democratic socialist.
Growing up I never understood the hate for Russia (after the USSR) but then Russia started invading places similar to Hitler's appeasement method, seemly trying to restore the USSR.
Everyone I ever met that lived under Soviet rule has extreme hatred for Soviet union and Russian. And tend to be right wing... Which I never understood why. I feel like you made me understand them a bit more (I still think they are a bit crazy).
Thank you for helping you relate to thoses I see as crazy a bit better.
I am no longer replying.
I wish you the best and well wishes.