this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2023
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[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

got nothing against vegans it's just when they try to force it into others

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Very few will force it on others, though. Anyway, I find it hilarious how people can get riled up about the idea of a person not eating meat or any animal products. I’ve seen it often that they take it personally for some reason and will “compensate by eating extra bacon/steak/chicken”. It’s bonkers.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

People take it personally because deep down everyone knows it is wrong to keep something as cruel as the meat and dairy industry alive, plus the huge environmental impacts on multiple fronts. So they get super defensive instead of confronting or accepting the fact that they're doing the wrong thing for selfish reasons.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's funny: the forum I help moderate has a strong contingent of zero-carb/carnivores, and their experience is the same, only in reverse. They get shamed for not eating plants. I guess the moral is that people will criticize us, no matter what we do.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eh, I don't care what you eat. But I find very offensive, naive, and just plain wrong the idea that it's impossible to sustainably raise animals for meat, eggs, dairy, etc as many vegans will try to insist.

Does it cost more? Yes. Can we raise as many as we do today using conventional farming techniques? No. Will/should we all cut back on our meat, dairy, etc? Yes. But, then again being more mindful of what we all eat is going to be required regardless, if we're going to manage to feed everyone.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Claiming that something is on its whole sustainable is rather loosely defined (i.e what level of impact is considered sustainable and on what metrics), so let's look a little closer. What many are saying there is that process is still going to inherently be much more inefficient compared to growing plants directly for human consumption

It turns out to be the case that the worst-case production of any plants-based production comes out ahead compared to best-case production of meat, dairy, etc. on virtually all environmental metrics

If I source my beef or lamb from low-impact producers, could they have a lower footprint than plant-based alternatives? The evidence suggests, no: plant-based foods emit fewer greenhouse gases than meat and dairy, regardless of how they are produced.

[…]

Plant-based protein sources – tofu, beans, peas and nuts – have the lowest carbon footprint. This is certainly true when you compare average emissions. But it’s still true when you compare the extremes: there’s not much overlap in emissions between the worst producers of plant proteins, and the best producers of meat and dairy.

https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat

Plant-based foods have a significantly smaller footprint on the environment than animal-based foods. Even the least sustainable vegetables and cereals cause less environmental harm than the lowest impact meat and dairy products [9].

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1614/htm

Even true of synthetic fertilizer usage compared to the best case of animal manure

Thus, shifting from animal to plant sources of protein can substantially reduce fertilizer requirements, even with maximal use of animal manure

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344922006528

In terms of biodiversity

Livestock farmers often claim that their grazing systems “mimic nature”. If so, the mimicry is a crude caricature. A review of evidence from over 100 studies found that when livestock are removed from the land, the abundance and diversity of almost all groups of wild animals increases

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/16/most-damaging-farm-products-organic-pasture-fed-beef-lamb

If we compare more typical production rather than best to worst, the differences are even more apparent

To produce 1 kg of protein from kidney beans required approximately eighteen times less land, ten times less water, nine times less fuel, twelve times less fertilizer and ten times less pesticide in comparison to producing 1 kg of protein from beef

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25374332/

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah when I was a vegetarian kid a decade and a bit ago I was relatively quiet about it because I got sick of meat-eaters throwing bacon at me or trying to "gotcha" me with the classic desert island meme.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago

Same energy as "I don't hate the gays I just wish they'd stop shoving it in my face"

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As a vegan myself, I completely agree! I won't tell others what to eat and they shouldn't tell me what to eat. If I were to ever get "preachy" it's purely about reducing impact on the factors mentioned in the meme and by no means forced... One less meal a week with meat in? Go you! Locally sourcing meat? Hell yeah, less environmental impact!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For the bit about local, it's worth noting here that the difference is substantially less than one might expect. Transport is a surprisingly small portion of emissions and environmental impact

Transport is a small contributor to emissions. For most food products, it accounts for less than 10%, and it’s much smaller for the largest GHG emitters. In beef from beef herds, it’s 0.5%.

Not just transport, but all processes in the supply chain after the food left the farm – processing, transport, retail and packaging – mostly account for a small share of emissions.

This data shows that this is the case when we look at individual food products. But studies also shows that this holds true for actual diets; here we show the results of a study which looked at the footprint of diets across the EU. Food transport was responsible for only 6% of emissions, whilst dairy, meat and eggs accounted for 83%

https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Thank you for sharing, I wasn't aware the impact of transport was quite so small

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I always thought the party of sourcing from local wasn't transport but supporting your local economy and small producers, keeping the money within your city and raising buying power for its citizens.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Most of what I hear from those touting local is about the environment (and usually unaware of the levels of its effects)

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I use arch btw

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I use arch btw

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I use void fyi

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, they're always outside the Steakhouse picketing. Running at me constantly with a fork full of green vegetables.

THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM THAT I CONSTANTLY HAVE IN REAL LIFE.

[–] puppetx 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is the sarcasm we deserve.

I've known plenty of vegans and not once have I seen them "try to force it into others"... Outside of internet rage baiting crazies.

..Now the religious on the other hand, I have first hand experience with.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Even worse is the anti-vegan that will berate you for not eating meat, or that say they will purposefully eat twice as much meat just to counter your efforts... And yes, I have met a few of them, generally they blame vegans for their behaviour too 🙄

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

The worst force a vegan ever deployed against me was… a disapproving face and some statement of disagreement. I guess some people can‘t take even the slightest disagreement in their life.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You joke, but there have been cases of steakhouses and butcher shops having troubles with protestors. It's not an everyday thing, but we are talking about a small, crazy portion of an already fringe group.

[–] bulbasaur -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So crazy to protest ppl profiting off the rape and murder of thousands of sentient beings

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

.....that is a profoundly stupid way to look at it, you cannot exist without hurting something or someone, your mere existence causes pain to some people, and they'd much rather you stop existing, are you going to oblige them too? To define pain and suffering as unacceptable in all forms is to deny reality.

[–] bulbasaur -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nice ableism. No one is forcing you to support the rape and murder of sentient beings so you can put their corpses in your mouth. You can choose not to do it, don't pretend your hands are tied

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

No, we can't, we're omnivores, while you can survive on plant-based sources of protein, in the long term, it causes problems. Getting the right nutrients is difficult and expensive, even in the short-term, meaning that you have to be profoundly privileged to do it, so technically, you're classist.

And you didn't answer my question, what about all the other suffering you support? People who suffer so that you can be comfortable, everyone from the avocado farmers and factory workers to the bugs/animals that get poisoned by various pesticides? How is their pain ok, while the cows' pain is unacceptable? Do you understand that you can't exist without causing some pain and discomfort, somewhere to something?? The only reason you have a problem with eating meat is because that is right in front of you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not the original commenter, but wanted to add some rebuttal to a few of those claims

In terms of health

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

In terms of costs

It found that in high-income countries:

• Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.

• Vegetarian diets were a close second.

• Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.

• By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

In terms of issues with crop production

Those end up being reduced due to the lesser need to grow crops. Is it perfect, no, but does it end up substantially ahead, yes

So for instance terms of pesticides, the usage still ends up lower due to a lesser need to grow feed crops

To produce 1 kg of protein from kidney beans required approximately eighteen times less land, ten times less water, nine times less fuel, twelve times less fertilizer and ten times less pesticide in comparison to producing 1 kg of protein from beef

(emphasis mine)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25374332/

More broadly

Plant-based foods have a significantly smaller footprint on the environment than animal-based foods. Even the least sustainable vegetables and cereals cause less environmental harm than the lowest impact meat and dairy products [9].

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1614/htm

This is because

1 kg of meat requires 2.8 kg of human-edible feed for ruminants and 3.2 for monogastrics

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In terms of health, it's healthy

There are people, whose whole job, and primary source of income is being vegan and talking about being vegan, and many of those people complain about the health problems they have, despite of all the effort they've put into it. So no.

In terms of issues with crop production

So murder of things is fine, then? You we'ren't complaining about the amount of meat people were eating , you were complaining that people eat meat at all.

And again, you didn't answer the most important part, what about the human pain and suffering your lifestyle causes?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Note again that I am not the commenter from earlier in this thread. I did not make any of those statements earlier. I am saying that while not 100% perfect, it is a dramatic reduction in environmental harm and suffering

In terms of health, an academic body that has looked at scientific literature is far more reliable than one's perception of influencers/YouTubers

In terms of human suffering, that is made worse by the meat industry as well. The meatpacking industry is one of the most dangerous injuries out there. From one Human Rights Watch report:

Together, poultry slaughtering and processing companies reported more severe injuries to the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) than many industries that are popularly recognized as hazardous, such as sawmills, industrial building construction, and oil and gas well drilling

https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/09/04/when-were-dead-and-buried-our-bones-will-keep-hurting/workers-rights-under-threat

That's not to mention mental toll that comes from killing day in and day out that you don't see with crop harvesting. Quotes from slaughterhouse workers are quite hard to read

Soon, though, I realised there was no point pretending that it was just another job

[...]

As I spent day after day in that large, windowless box, my chest felt increasingly heavy and a grey fog descended over me. At night, my mind would taunt me with nightmares, replaying some of the horrors I'd witnessed throughout the day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50986683

Less anecdotally

There is evidence that slaughterhouse employment is associated with lower levels of psychological well-being. SHWs [slaughterhouse workers] have described suffering from trauma, intense shock, paranoia, anxiety, guilt and shame (Victor & Barnard, 2016), and stress (Kristensen, 1991). There was evidence of higher rates of depression (Emhan et al., 2012; Horton & Lipscomb, 2011; Hutz et al., 2013; Lander et al., 2016; Lipscomb et al., 2007), anxiety (Emhan et al., 2012; Hutz et al., 2013; Leibler et al., 2017), psychosis (Emhan et al., 2012), and feelings of lower self-worth at work (Baran et al., 2016). Of particular note was that the symptomatology appeared to vary by job role. Employees working directly with the animals (e.g., on the kill floor or handling the carcasses) were those who showed the highest prevalence rates of aggression, anxiety, and depression (Hutz et al., 2013; Richards et al., 2013).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15248380211030243

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What do you mean by "forcing" veganism onto others?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Eat your vegetables or I will make you eat them! /s vegan btw

[–] bulbasaur 5 points 1 year ago

Like you force your lifestyle on animals, by exploiting and killing them?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Nobody is forcing veganism onto others lmao. You see a lot of vegans going around putting a gun to someone's head demanding they drop the eggs they're holding in the store? Most vegans won't even tell you they are vegan when it's not relevant because it's too exhausting when a person turns out to be a 'veganism bad lel' debate bro, so we'd rather avoid the chance.