this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2023
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

No, we can't, we're omnivores, while you can survive on plant-based sources of protein, in the long term, it causes problems. Getting the right nutrients is difficult and expensive, even in the short-term, meaning that you have to be profoundly privileged to do it, so technically, you're classist.

And you didn't answer my question, what about all the other suffering you support? People who suffer so that you can be comfortable, everyone from the avocado farmers and factory workers to the bugs/animals that get poisoned by various pesticides? How is their pain ok, while the cows' pain is unacceptable? Do you understand that you can't exist without causing some pain and discomfort, somewhere to something?? The only reason you have a problem with eating meat is because that is right in front of you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not the original commenter, but wanted to add some rebuttal to a few of those claims

In terms of health

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

In terms of costs

It found that in high-income countries:

• Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.

• Vegetarian diets were a close second.

• Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.

• By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

In terms of issues with crop production

Those end up being reduced due to the lesser need to grow crops. Is it perfect, no, but does it end up substantially ahead, yes

So for instance terms of pesticides, the usage still ends up lower due to a lesser need to grow feed crops

To produce 1 kg of protein from kidney beans required approximately eighteen times less land, ten times less water, nine times less fuel, twelve times less fertilizer and ten times less pesticide in comparison to producing 1 kg of protein from beef

(emphasis mine)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25374332/

More broadly

Plant-based foods have a significantly smaller footprint on the environment than animal-based foods. Even the least sustainable vegetables and cereals cause less environmental harm than the lowest impact meat and dairy products [9].

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1614/htm

This is because

1 kg of meat requires 2.8 kg of human-edible feed for ruminants and 3.2 for monogastrics

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In terms of health, it's healthy

There are people, whose whole job, and primary source of income is being vegan and talking about being vegan, and many of those people complain about the health problems they have, despite of all the effort they've put into it. So no.

In terms of issues with crop production

So murder of things is fine, then? You we'ren't complaining about the amount of meat people were eating , you were complaining that people eat meat at all.

And again, you didn't answer the most important part, what about the human pain and suffering your lifestyle causes?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Note again that I am not the commenter from earlier in this thread. I did not make any of those statements earlier. I am saying that while not 100% perfect, it is a dramatic reduction in environmental harm and suffering

In terms of health, an academic body that has looked at scientific literature is far more reliable than one's perception of influencers/YouTubers

In terms of human suffering, that is made worse by the meat industry as well. The meatpacking industry is one of the most dangerous injuries out there. From one Human Rights Watch report:

Together, poultry slaughtering and processing companies reported more severe injuries to the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) than many industries that are popularly recognized as hazardous, such as sawmills, industrial building construction, and oil and gas well drilling

https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/09/04/when-were-dead-and-buried-our-bones-will-keep-hurting/workers-rights-under-threat

That's not to mention mental toll that comes from killing day in and day out that you don't see with crop harvesting. Quotes from slaughterhouse workers are quite hard to read

Soon, though, I realised there was no point pretending that it was just another job

[...]

As I spent day after day in that large, windowless box, my chest felt increasingly heavy and a grey fog descended over me. At night, my mind would taunt me with nightmares, replaying some of the horrors I'd witnessed throughout the day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50986683

Less anecdotally

There is evidence that slaughterhouse employment is associated with lower levels of psychological well-being. SHWs [slaughterhouse workers] have described suffering from trauma, intense shock, paranoia, anxiety, guilt and shame (Victor & Barnard, 2016), and stress (Kristensen, 1991). There was evidence of higher rates of depression (Emhan et al., 2012; Horton & Lipscomb, 2011; Hutz et al., 2013; Lander et al., 2016; Lipscomb et al., 2007), anxiety (Emhan et al., 2012; Hutz et al., 2013; Leibler et al., 2017), psychosis (Emhan et al., 2012), and feelings of lower self-worth at work (Baran et al., 2016). Of particular note was that the symptomatology appeared to vary by job role. Employees working directly with the animals (e.g., on the kill floor or handling the carcasses) were those who showed the highest prevalence rates of aggression, anxiety, and depression (Hutz et al., 2013; Richards et al., 2013).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15248380211030243