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Sorry what is TEC?
I like how you worded this as different perspectives and focuses with potential a singular underlying messages rather than the common saying, which I dislike, of they're different paths up the same mountain.
May I ask how do you handle big and/or cosmological differences? Or do you focus on the advaita one's? One of the biggest reasons I haven't studied any form of Hinduism is the main Buddhist critiques of it. Non-self/atman, anti-caste, no eternal source, and no creator god. I also, find the three marks of existence quite logical as well as the four noble truths. Though I study it academically I also follow it personally. If I understand correctly your current method or interest is taking advaita as your core but studying traditions around it to gain other perspectives? It's fun that the Buddha ran into some big religious traditions if his time and had debates with them so there is a record of exactly the sort of back and forth you are interested in.
Have you watched Let's Talk Religion's videos on Advaita? They're pretty interesting. Watched them a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMEsszfBYMo&pp=ygUHYWR2YWl0YQ%3D%3D
May I ask what about nondualism interests you? And what about Kashmiri Shaivism carried this interest? What is the difference with Shiva as center? What does that imply for the practice?
I actually used to have this understanding as well until I read this book by James Laidlaw: https://archive.org/details/richesrenunciati0000laid His main point, which is a good point to understand for religion in general, is that in Jainism as understood through its texts and Jainism as its lived can be wildly different traditions with little pressure for lay people to renounce. The particular city he did his fieldwork in showed that many Jains were wildly rich though they supported those who renounced. If you only approach it from its texts it appears the only point of the traditions is to renounce. This is was a pretty eye opening moment for me in school that lived religion is the best approach. This comes as a critique of how early Protestant scholars of religion only studied religions based on what their texts said then would label its followers as good or bad based on that. If one follows this method there are few Buddhists in East Asia, when in reality there are millions.
I guess because of my more Buddhist views I have trouble being interested in more creator centered traditions. I, like you, was brought up Christian and one of the big eye opening moments for me in Buddhism besides emptiness and impermanence was no creator god. In the nondualism you study is Brahman necessarily a creator god or are there forms where they are not?
I hope I don't come off as aggressively Buddhist. I also enjoy reading about what your talking about. Really fun to listen to podcasts on all of it and Great Courses talks. Studying at the phd level has somewhat ripped away my non-Buddhist time and care since it's my job lol.
When I was more Buddhist-Christian I really did enjoy such nondualist traditions within Abrahamic and potentially South Asian religions as they sort of bridged my way.
IDK if I already asked it but what particularly about nondualism interests you? And outside of that what about those two traditions way above interest you? What made them click moving from Christianity?
I like this metaphor!
Taking this and going back to your comment on universalism. How do you think that can work when there are radically different core beliefs? Makes me think of the Chinese Yiguandao religion which stems from the sanjiao or three teachings tradition mixing Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, Christianity, and Islam, lol.
Oh yeah this is also very fun. Like how Gilgamesh contains the story of Noah and the flood way before the Tanak wrote it. I find it difficult to balance these manners of thinking. On the one hand I believe Buddhism to be true but find other traditions interesting and potentially helpful. On the other hand I academically recognize the truth in thousands of years of traditions radically affecting one another. I don't like to randomly mix traditions but I do see "native" followers doing so in more traditional manners such as sanjiao and find it reasonable. On the other hand it makes me annoyed when people say it's just multiple paths up the same mountain. This complication in both one's religious life and one's research of historical and modern traditions long influence is what makes religious such as interesting topic.
Same.
//these are rambles written very late at night. I hope it's an engaging reply for you :) I'm gonna send this as a pm as well in case this gets deleted though I am on my own instance.
Thanks! I'm gonna reply once I'm on a computer to keep things organized.
But TEC is the episcopal church, sorry!
Part 1
The Episcopal Church, specifically The Episcopal Church USA
I mean, I do think they’re paths to the same point, but that particular expression I’m not too big a fan of. Up the same mountain makes it sound, firstly, like a slog, and secondly like the paths themselves are similar. I prefer Vivekananda’s version
“As different streams having their sources in different places all mingle their waters in the sea, so, Oh Lord, the different paths which men take through different tendencies various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee”
I also quite like his story of the frog in the well. That’s not exactly relevant here, but it’s a google story, and I like it a lot. Lol
Where do you land on rebirth/reincarnation? Also, what branch of Buddhism do you practice?
So, my personal idea of Brahman is less creator deity and more universal constant. If there is truly not-two, then all things are brahman, all things are in common. I don’t see brahman as a distinct, physical god, but as the collection of the entirety of existence. Pantheism, perhaps panentheism depending on the day.
From what I’ve read, I also quite like the three marks of existence (though I knew them as the Universal Truths) and the four noble truths. I don’t know as much about Buddhism as I’d like, though, and I need to learn more. It’s honestly just a weird fluke that I ended up with more knowledge of hinduism than of buddhism, considering how much more popular buddhism is in the states. I’ve always enjoyed learning about other traditions, especially ones that are very foreign to my current understanding. I had just come off a kick on Norse Paganism when I started reading about Advaita, and it just… clicked. Never really looked back. I hadn’t done the same with Buddhism because I mistakenly thought I knew what it was all about. Found out later I had very little understanding of Buddhism, and I’ve only just recently started really looking into it.
Less that one is my core and I’m studying things around it, and more that I am trying to study as many as possible objectively, and attempting to find my own core. As current, Advaita is the closest I have to come to expressing what I have always believed internally, and consequently gives me a language to explain how I feel about the universe, and a framework to help understand things that I currently do not. I’m not dogmatic about it, though, and am willing to grow, adapt and change my views when new information or traditions are presented.
I need to look those up. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing I would like to start reading!
I have! They’re quite good. John Green is doing a religions series on Crash Course, and I’m spamming the comments on each episode asking him to do an episode specifically about nonduality. Haha
So, there’s nothing specific, for me, about having Shiva at center. It’s less about the image that people hold of the godhead, and more just another tradition attempting to explain nonduality, and the nuances of it that make it interesting. I use Advaita as a shorthand to explain what I believe, because, again, its quite close. But ultimately, its nonduality that is most essential, so just about any nondualist tradition is of interest to me. Kashmiri Shaivism and Advaita have a lot of difference… Most of which I don’t understand well enough to explain. Haha.
I will check out that book! It can be sort of… Disconcerting, realizing the difference between the religious texts or a philosophical tradition and the actual lived religion of the people. I remember when I made one of my first Hindu friends, and I was so excited to chat about nondualism, cyclical time, and other sort of deep cuts from people like Shankara and Ramakrishna. And they were like “I do pooja, and I don’t really think about it otherwise” And I realized Hindus were much like Christians in that regard. Haha. Probably the same for just about any religion outside of tiny cults.
Plenty of the nondualists/advaitins I’ve spoken with do not really understand Brahman through the lens of a creator god. Brahman, to my understanding, isn’t generally viewed as a creator deity, but more as universal existence itself. The creator deity in Hinduism is (at least, in most branches) is Brahma, not Brahman. The Hindu trimurti is Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. Brahma creates, Vishnu sustains, and Shiva destroys. But Brahma and Brahman are not the same thing, just a similar sounding word. There are two major concepts of Brahman, Saguna and Nirguna. Nirguna Brahman is the formless, atributeless, unexplainable, ineffable divine existence that permeates all. It is the paramatman, the soul from which all souls spring (though, even that kind languages implies a duality. Better to say the soul from which all souls appear to spring). Saguna Brahman is sort of like philosophical training wheels. Saguna Brahman is basically up to the believers choice. You can choose to imagine Saguna Brahman as Vishnu, or Shiva, or your own mother if you’re so inclined. It is simply an aspect of Brahman, the true Nirguna Brahman, that allows you to focus your mind until you are ready to understand the true nature of Brahman as Nirguna Brahman.
Not at all! I hope I don’t across as aggressively any-one-thing. Haha. I’d love to learn more about Buddhism, if you wouldn’t mind educating me and pointing me to some places to begin.
I think I’ve already sort of gone into that above, but I’m too lazy to check. Haha. Nondualism gives me a framework to explain what I’ve always sort of known/believed internally. We are not-two. It also helped me explain my universalism within my Christian framework, as I’ve never really believed in hell, and could not jive the concept of a benevolent, loving God and eternal damnation. Infinite punishment for finite crimes and all. It led to me Universal Reconciliation.
Coming from Christianity, thinking there was only god, I was slow to adapt Buddhist cosmology. My current thinking is more orthodox. I think most cosmology makes sense to me. Also, Buddhism doesn't really make sense without rebirth. The whole issue is that death is not the end. If death is the end, Buddhism doesn't need to exist. Furthermore, while Christianity caused a lot of confusion as I began to question, Buddhist ideas such as impermanence, emptiness, and interdependence appear quite logical to me.
I wonder how you would view this after reading further about emptiness?
That's kind of how it happened with me for Buddhism!
I like this way of looking at it. I also find Confucianism, Daoism, and Shintoism interesting but to me Buddhism makes the most sense and is my core too.
That sounds good. Thanks for sharing.
How would this nondualism relate to emptiness? In Buddhist emptiness everything is emptiness of ultimate form. Might consider this also a form of nondualism..
Haha, that's a funny story. That's pretty much all my early Buddhist interactions as well. Expecting them to know some deep question but them just being like I read this sutra daily and that's it.
That's very interesting!
Part 2
From as in where I started, not where I left. I’d still consider myself a Christian, just not a traditional Christian, and probably not a trinitarian. But I don’t know how one can be a nondualist and a trinitarian. Haha. Meister Eckhart got in a lot of trouble back in the day, and I’m sure that was part of it.
Me, too! Linguistics was the other great love of my teen years, so it helps me to think in those terms.
That’s the thing, though, I don’t think there are that many radically different core beliefs. Even something as inherently dualistic as Gnosticism has nondualist branches. I think ultimately there is far more in common, at the core, than there is in difference. It’s the trappings, the metaphors and the explanations that differ. We use different stories to explain similar concepts, and we end up with radically different traditions, but the basic concepts are often very similar. I mean, I’m not suggesting they’re all identical or the same, or even that all different faiths or traditions are ultimately compatible, but that many, many, many of them are trying to say the same thing, it’s mainly the vessels that are change.
Honestly, yeah, I am completely and totally bastardizing everything. Haha. I am well aware of it. But I also attempting to do so in a way involves actual academic study and a more fleshed out understanding of a tradition before going all shopping cart religion on it. I think that what we find when we do any kind in depth study on the philosophical side of most traditions, as opposed to the practical, lived side of things, is that most of traditions have had at least a few people who stumbled or found their way to the idea of nonduality, or something similar to it.
From what I understand (which, again, not a lot) the buddhist concept of emptiness is also compared to the Advaitin idea of nonduality, just, obviously, nontheistic. Can you help me understand Emptiness? I’m at a bit of a loss on it, to be honest.
I'm sure eastern orthodox has such a tradition of thinking of Jesus as a flame within your heart, never being separate from him.
Did you study any languages that you maintain today? What about Sanskrit for your religious interess.
I think this is a good approach world religious harmony across the world :) I don't take this cosmological view because I think it's important for my practice but I can understand it.
This is smart! Then you don't go down the hippie path of just making up your own thing without taking the traditions seriously.
One of the main points of emptiness is that everything even the dharma is empty of intrinsic nature. Reading the heart sutra and the diamond sutra will explain it more clearly. The five senses are empty and there is no self, these are to emptiness based ideas. Everything arises from causes, conditions, and interdependence. Things do conventionally exist but not ultimately. Things have no ultimate existence. There is no deeper self.
Here is an interesting read on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81#Chinese_Buddhism There is a part on advaita!
Oh and I didn't say but I would just say I am a Mahayanist. Early on I would try to find a specific Buddhist identity but outside of cults and Japanese unique Buddhist history that's quite unique. All 84,000 dharma gates lead to the same dharma as is traditionally said.
Will follow up asap, have midterms this week and things are a little hectic. Thanks for replying!
Quick question during the interim, though: if Buddhism doesn't work without rebirth, and there is no soul/atman, and all is devoid or substance/is empty, what is it that's reborn?
That might be less an answerable question and more a request for reading material. Lol