this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2024
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I was perplexed by the question. What's the difference? They explained: "Should I tiptoe and watch my manners around you or be blunt? Flirtatious or chill? Brag about my sexual conquests or talk about our feelings? When you're sad, do I hug you and buy you ice cream or do we go grab some beers? Should I wonder if we'll ever hook up?"

I'm not sure if I'm more appalled or confused by this mindset. I thought everyone treated their friends the same regardless of their gender identity. Is this just a fringe case of toxic masculinity, or is this really how the average cis person sees the world?

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago

Definitely not purely a case of toxic masculinity. Gender roles and norms exist in all cultures, even those that were matriarchal.

We can debate all day of that's a good thing or not, but it isn't going away any time soon.

Mind you, the examples they gave are pretty lousy ones, despite being currently a part of general existence. The things they used are part of how women and men expect to be treated, and there's likely a majority that want those behaviors. No telling how many would want them because they genuinely prefer them, or because they've been trained to prefer them over time.

We all know that individuals vary, that there's no 100% possible with what a given person wants in regards to gender related interactions. There's just no way to exclude any of those as valid preferences either. Despite the obvious toxicity of the flirt/chill dynamic where that's the only two options and the default presence of sex needing to be figured out as excluded or not, those things do matter in heterosexual interactions. It isn't solely toxic masculinity and the patriarchal paradigm either, there's an underlying question of "what are our gender norms going to be?" that exists any time there isn't already a rigid cultural standard.

One thing I've noticed with friends that I've known before and after transition is the same confusion present here. It's as hard or harder to learn social expectations that you didn't pick up as you grew up than the physical experiences of transition. Part of that is that we learn a lot by going through puberty and navigating the hormonal shifts at a younger age when we're cis.

People that transition as adults seem to run into greater difficulty absorbing all the things we're expected to just figure out on our own during puberty. Part of learning to be a man is learning how to manage and control the behavioral aspects of testosterone. So many of the unwritten rules of being a man are driven by that need. The same is true for women, but the precise aspects differ to some degree or another (usually to a high degree).

I'm not saying any given behaviors should be a part of overall gender expectations, just saying that they exist and that means an extra layer of things that nobody seems to think of until they're involved in transition (either by going through it, or being close to someone that is).

Being real, I was in my thirties before I figured out that the whole "will we?" question isn't irrelevant, and can't be totally hand waved away intellectually. Doesn't matter what I do or believe, because there's plenty of times it'll arise in other people needing it answered. I had always thought that if you're around a woman or girl that's a friend, you just ignore the sex issue because it'll resolve itself over time and not need addressing. But that's not true. A lot of women need that addressed just so that they can relax around a male friend.

That's not just because men tend to assertiveness and/or aggression in sexual matters. Women can get wrapped up in their drives too, so its usually better to have the possibility of sex and romance (together or separately) worked out early on. It isn't like we don't sometimes want or need sex as a human interaction without it being something more, so even if you're both certain that romance is off the table, sex may not be, and that can come from either party, regardless of gender or orientation (I've been sticking to hetero interactions here because your post is about male/female interactions, but the same need to work out the issues exists with homogender friendship as well).

And none of that gets into the other aspects of gender related minefields that exist for someone transitioning. There's a ton of them that are hard enough to figure out at all, and trying to do so when you've never experienced the complexity of things directly is harder. Just the nuances of how men adjust their behaviors around other men they don't know is ridiculously complex, as one example that I've seen come up frequently. How do you learn all the little body language rules when you've never had to use them in a fluid way? It's as hard as unlearning them when transitioning to female. Having access to hormone treatment doesn't grant automatic understanding of such things.

All of that gets tangential to your ultimate question though. It is true that a shit ton of cis people see the world that way, and even more follow that standard because it is so engrained that you can't just discard it all without running into trouble.

Again, that's not about what should or shouldn't be, it's just an observation about how things are currently.