this post was submitted on 25 Dec 2024
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KDE is an international technology team creating user-friendly free and open source software for desktop and portable computing. KDE’s software runs on GNU/Linux, BSD and other operating systems, including Windows.

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Let's make Windows 10 the last version ever used!

*Sat. 28 Dec. 11h* Stage YELL #KDEEco 's Call To Action against e-waste driven by #Windows10.

https://events.ccc.de/congress/2024/hub/en/event/opt-green-coordinating-a-windows-10-to-linux-upcycling-campaign-across-free-software-communities-worldwide/

*Mon. 30 Dec. 13-15h* B&B habitat join the BoF to organize a global #FreeSoftware campaign to raise awareness of Windows 10's EoL in 2025, the role of software in #eWaste, and how independent, sustainable #FOSS is a solution to keep devices in use & out of the landfill.

https://fahrplan.alpaka.space/jugend-hackt-38c3-2024/talk/ST8NJA/

#38C3 #KDE #OpenSource

@kde

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[–] jaggedrobotpubes 67 points 1 month ago (4 children)

As someone who is way into the idea of Linux, wants to switch, and is very gun-shy about the million little programs and extensions I might not be able to replace, let me tell you what is required of anybody who is actually genuine in their desire to see Linux gain the traction it deserves:

Don't ever tell anybody to read the manual again. Just answer the god damn question. It's good when answers to basic, common problems are peppered around the internet like that; it's dumb and wrong and weird to think of it as a thing to be avoided. If you'd like to put a link to the part of the manual where the questioner could have looked to find it, that's cool, too. Don't just leave the link--there's a good chance they didn't understand it and that's why they're asking. Maybe they just want a person-answer instead of a reference-manual-answer, and it's good when the answer exists in both forms. Every answered question is a contribution.

I would go even further: the version of reality where Linux beats Windows and ushers in an era of community-centric open source dominance is populated by a Linux community that considers "rtfm", "pebcac", etc to be borderline bannable offenses. If you are a small, weak person, and want Linux to be your way of thinking you're better than other people, you'll drive question-askers away, back to Inferiority Land, using your knowledge to dunk on them instead of help them, and call it a win. These are the ugly bridge trolls, who may as well be paid Microsoft employees, keeping people away from your community, and a serious change of pace might yield much smoother adoption. At the very least, the community owes it to their own work to see how much smoother.

As someone considering the switch seriously, the knowledge that I may have to deal with people like that is absolutely, 100% a factor, and I am someone who has no qualms about telling someone on the internet to fuck off, so it's gonna be more of an issue for many others who are more conflict-averse.

The Linux community needs to take very seriously whether it actually wants increased open source adoption, or if it wants to remain a tiny minority so that it has a nice, large majority to feel better than.

[–] daggermoon 20 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I always try to help new users. I was a beginner once so I know how it feels to be told to rtfm by some cunt. Half the time I have an issue i'll search it up only to find some reddit post with someone asking the same question and getting shit on by elitists who have nothing going on in their own lives. In any case, if you ever need help I or someone else would be happy to help to the best of our ability.

[–] Infernal_pizza 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I hate it when you Google an issue and all you can find is a Reddit thread of the same problem where the only response is someone saying to Google it

[–] spankmonkey 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

I'll take that over the windows 'support' forums where the people with superuser titles don't understand basic questions and the answer tends to be to see if it gets fixed in a future version of windows.

And those posts are a decade old because they were never fixed.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

OMG, LOL. Yes!

"Do <cut & paste from the MS support, please tell me if it helps" "Ehh, I was asking about something completely unrelated, bro..."

But even that beats the Atlassian forums, LOL

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I hear ya. My theory is the Linux community is a world filled with autism. I am autistic (late diagnosed at 30, using Linux since 10yo). I think many of us are undiagnosed. I legit think if people just assumed a bit of neurodivergence in us you'll see we aren't hostile. We also need better manuals, such as video series', interactive tutorials and such. RTFM I agree is not welcome, but we do need these introductory materials (better than the arch wiki you autists) and we need high quality ones. I think that's a worthwhile investment, no?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Linux is NOT a desktop OS. Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora are desktop OSses

KDE is a desktop

Linux is a kernel. Linux is Android, Linux is your NAS, the supercomputer where I work at and the servers that make the internet.

Discussing Linux in terms of a desktop OS is moot.

Windows includes FOSS, 99% of "all the small apps" are available in Linux, Mac or Windows.

All the ones that not: Photoshop or MS Office are available on the cloud and way more powerful than their desktop veresions.

You CAN have KDE / Kwin running on Windows.

The Linux community does enough. "We" basically own the internet. If any of us wants a Linux based desktop we install it and use it. The rest can use Android.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Without offenses but it's important to read instructions for anything in this life, the wash machine, robot cooking, your daily medication, etc., all of them have instructions.

Most people that says "read the documentation" is also tired of people that can't read instructions how things works, and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.

I feel Windows users lacks many documentation and people are used to click to .exe that claims to do what they need to do, or they just follow some random user on a forum.

When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming, I tell them to just read documentation. No need to pay for extra courses or YouTube videos, most of the time you can learn it better and up to date if you go to the documentation.

Then, after you did the proper search, it would make sense to open a post asking for help to gurus, telling them the steps you followed providing context and logs, if you don't do that, most experts would just ignore you if you can't spend time reading docs, they won't spend time solving your issue normally.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago (2 children)

people that can't read instructions how things works

Pretty sure that's their point: If the instructions are too complex or intimidating, particularly if they're technically written, they may genuinely be unreadable to some users.

There's a certain effect where, if something seems overwhelming, particularly if you already feared it might be, that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And once the overwhelm starts, once it sounds even a little too complex for users to be confident in their understanding, the brain goes into panic mode and holds on to "aaaah I can't do this".

So yes, some people genuinely can't read instructions because static instructions don't talk to them, just at them, with no ability to respond and reassure if that panic hits. Human interaction often seems less intimidating because they can (ideally) respond to your confusion, reword just that part, hold your hand through the process, all of which instructions can't.

Throwing them into the pool and telling them to learn swimming doesn't help: It makes them want to leave. Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately, but making it an entry barrier risks scaring people off before their investment of time and focus starts paying off.

and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.

Are those docs written or proofread by noobs? My experience with tech people (including myself, unfortunately) is that we tend to think in specific trained (or perhaps intuitive to us) patterns that don't neatly map on how non-techies perceive and understand the world. If I try to explain something, I don't even know where there are parts that I'd need to simplify, explain differently, what metaphors I could use to help understand and so on.

Of course, techies do want those details I'd have to omit for non-techies. Some guides do really well with a "simple" and an "advanced" version of instructions. However, "documentation" doesn't always equal "guide", and some docs are really just a dry list of functiond and syntax, which brings us back to the topic of having to learn to read docs.

When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming

...they're already past the first threshold of "This is all way too much, I'll never learn that". Anyone willing to engage with programming already has conquered - or never had - that initial fear of not understanding stuff. For them, docs might not be much of a barrier, and if they're well-written may be a good point for slightly more advanced stuff.

I'd argue they'll still need an initial intro to "how to think like a programmer" (or rather, "like a computer, and to solve backwards from that"), but in any case, they're not the target audience for "Linux as competitive desktop".

Non-techies are, and to them, tech may well be scary. We need to account for that and ease them in by whatever means work best for them, if we want them to come to us, not what suits us best.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago

This 100% I'm the computer person in my social circles, and my head sometimes starts to hurt from reading less than ideal documentation. Granted those are usually for pretty involved stuff, but it's pretty frustrating spending hours to chew through and not getting an answer after all.

I'd imagine it's worse for people whose PC is not a hobby but a tool. You shouldn't need to spend a lot of time and effort on a tool just to get it working right. That might be fine for a used bargain tool, but you don't replace like half the world's OS's with a used bargain tool. That's not what people want or need.

[–] BangCrash 4 points 1 month ago

This is why everything comes with a quick start 1 page guide AND a manual.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Even home appliances don't come with the full spec technical manual. They come with the user manual so you'd know how to use your appliance, not how to fix your appliance (with the exceptions being some easy to fix user errors). When people get technical errors on their home appliances they call a technician to fix those errors, because most people lack the technical knowledge to fix things themselves. And I imagine it's the same for you. I'm pretty sure you don't fix your own car. Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say "Just read the fucking manual and don't waste my time". What are you going to do? Read the manual that you didn't even know existed until that point and you'd first have to spend some time actually finding the manual (because some of those technical manuals are a fucking pain in the ass to find, if they're even readily available), or find another mechanic that would fix your car? What if all the mechanics tell you to go read the manual? How much of your own time would you be willing to invest into fixing an issue you didn't want to fix by yourself in the first place? What if someone offered to replace your entire car for free? Would you still spend time fixing your car or would you go "fuck it, I just need it to work"?

And that's the average Windows/Linux user. They just want an operating system that works. They don't want to understand all the technical stuff that goes on under the hood and when something breaks they want "a technician" to give them a quick solution, because knowing the inner workings of Linux is not a priority for them. Maybe they're the car mechanic that would fix your car and they've spent their time learning the inner works of a few dozen cars. People focus their time and attention on different things so getting angry at someone not wanting to learn Linux is like a car mechanic getting angry at you for not wanting to learn how your car works or a personal trainer getting angry because you don't know how your own body works etc.. Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

More or less is what I was saying.

Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say “Just read the fucking manual and don’t waste my time”. What are you going to do?

I said that you should pay the professional instead.

Even home appliances don’t come with the full spec technical manual.

Depends on what you buy there is more or less doc, things I often read is what to not do to not break it and how to get it ready and "running" correctly, as I would do with a microwave or to put air on my car wheels (I always open the book to read the correct values of air bar pressure for the wheels).

inner workings of Linux is not a priority

Most Windows users neither want to know the inner working of Windows, they pay experts to fix issues, or they click .exe files.

Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.

I didn't say that, I said that they need to get used how Linux works, because most people are used to Windows, and they all expect Linux to work like a Windows. But I know that I know a lot about Linux without asking anyone, just reading wiki, docs, git projects... some blogs or even YouTube videos. And now, as experienced user for more than 10 years with Linux distros, all this is really easy, I often do pretty amazing stuff as hobby at home and all that by reading stuff on internet how to do it. Thanks to my skill of reading docs, I am working with people with university degrees with the same salary/benefits as me, but I do not have studies more than the mandatory. If you are not into computers, you can keep using Windows or try to learn how Linux works to get used to it. The problem is the marketing, I'm sure all of us had a Windows machine much before we touched a Linux, rarely a person starts using their first computer with a Linux distro.


Summary: Expect a Linux guru to tell you to read the documentation as a car mechanic would tell you to do the engineering degree to fix your car.

If you have someone close to you that knows what happens to your car, and they tell you how to fix it, and it works, congratulations, the same would happen if you need to fix your printer drivers. But that person won't tell you how to fix your car motor engine (I mean more complex component), the same happens with the Linux guru.

🫤 Sorry but I don't really see the problem here more than the capitalism system that we have. Microsoft will never allow Linux to be popular, that's why 99% of computers comes with Windows, the money rules the world.