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https://fahrplan.alpaka.space/jugend-hackt-38c3-2024/talk/ST8NJA/
Without offenses but it's important to read instructions for anything in this life, the wash machine, robot cooking, your daily medication, etc., all of them have instructions.
Most people that says "read the documentation" is also tired of people that can't read instructions how things works, and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
I feel Windows users lacks many documentation and people are used to click to .exe that claims to do what they need to do, or they just follow some random user on a forum.
When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming, I tell them to just read documentation. No need to pay for extra courses or YouTube videos, most of the time you can learn it better and up to date if you go to the documentation.
Then, after you did the proper search, it would make sense to open a post asking for help to gurus, telling them the steps you followed providing context and logs, if you don't do that, most experts would just ignore you if you can't spend time reading docs, they won't spend time solving your issue normally.
Pretty sure that's their point: If the instructions are too complex or intimidating, particularly if they're technically written, they may genuinely be unreadable to some users.
There's a certain effect where, if something seems overwhelming, particularly if you already feared it might be, that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And once the overwhelm starts, once it sounds even a little too complex for users to be confident in their understanding, the brain goes into panic mode and holds on to "aaaah I can't do this".
So yes, some people genuinely can't read instructions because static instructions don't talk to them, just at them, with no ability to respond and reassure if that panic hits. Human interaction often seems less intimidating because they can (ideally) respond to your confusion, reword just that part, hold your hand through the process, all of which instructions can't.
Throwing them into the pool and telling them to learn swimming doesn't help: It makes them want to leave. Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately, but making it an entry barrier risks scaring people off before their investment of time and focus starts paying off.
Are those docs written or proofread by noobs? My experience with tech people (including myself, unfortunately) is that we tend to think in specific trained (or perhaps intuitive to us) patterns that don't neatly map on how non-techies perceive and understand the world. If I try to explain something, I don't even know where there are parts that I'd need to simplify, explain differently, what metaphors I could use to help understand and so on.
Of course, techies do want those details I'd have to omit for non-techies. Some guides do really well with a "simple" and an "advanced" version of instructions. However, "documentation" doesn't always equal "guide", and some docs are really just a dry list of functiond and syntax, which brings us back to the topic of having to learn to read docs.
...they're already past the first threshold of "This is all way too much, I'll never learn that". Anyone willing to engage with programming already has conquered - or never had - that initial fear of not understanding stuff. For them, docs might not be much of a barrier, and if they're well-written may be a good point for slightly more advanced stuff.
I'd argue they'll still need an initial intro to "how to think like a programmer" (or rather, "like a computer, and to solve backwards from that"), but in any case, they're not the target audience for "Linux as competitive desktop".
Non-techies are, and to them, tech may well be scary. We need to account for that and ease them in by whatever means work best for them, if we want them to come to us, not what suits us best.
This 100% I'm the computer person in my social circles, and my head sometimes starts to hurt from reading less than ideal documentation. Granted those are usually for pretty involved stuff, but it's pretty frustrating spending hours to chew through and not getting an answer after all.
I'd imagine it's worse for people whose PC is not a hobby but a tool. You shouldn't need to spend a lot of time and effort on a tool just to get it working right. That might be fine for a used bargain tool, but you don't replace like half the world's OS's with a used bargain tool. That's not what people want or need.
I think that is what you need to do to learn anything on computers... It's a skill, yeah, you need to improve it and not get scared, I remember those feelings a time ago, and now I realize everything fixes if I just read the docs/issues. No need to ask, so I wish the best for you and remember always to read the docs before posting/asking.
Depends, if a noob tries to do something complex they won't be able, let's use common sense also here. Don't try to do your own distro, but you can learn how Kdenlive works to edit a video or use
--helpon a command if you are not sure what it does or can do.If you don't understand the technical details of the documentation, or you search for what are those technical details (that can solve your issues) or you are on the wrong documentation.
For a common user, if they want to play a game they just need to install Steam and enable the option to play Windows games on Linux, that would be the same as doing it on Windows, if the user doesn't know how to do it, they search and some user or doc explains to go to the settings and enable it, or install steam via commands or using GUI.
If the application Kdenlive stopped to work without any error message, then you can go to the source git page and look for issues related, and you would appreciate a lot to find all the open source programs and dependencies with their own git pages to find recent issues reported (on Windows is harder as most stuff is hidden and closed).
But if Microsoft Office stop to work without any error message, then yeah, developers needs to send you random steps to hope it fixes your issues, and probably they won't ask you the logs, not much doc to read for this case. I think they have some basic help steps like re-install, clean cache and reboot your device, that doesn't really help when something is crashing hard.
If the documentation you're reading is too technic then you need to improve your tech skills, there is nothing wrong learning how a desktop interface works (as example), in the future you will be able to adapt it to your needs, and it won't force you to accept a change like with WinXP/Win7/Win8/Win10/Win11 interfaces.
Maybe 3 of 10 people that asked me that actually did anything, other people are just lazy that thinks the work of a programmer is easy, as a programmer we need to read many documentation for everything new or change or update on our development stuff. We not only read but also write documentation, to then, some random guy to ask something you have been writing on your own blog and documentation. Understand then if they just respond you telling to read the docs.
That's the issue. The median user will get scared. They can't accurately assess their own competence before they try it, and trying something new is scary. "What if I break something? What if I can't undo it?" They won't rely on docs or git pages or man pages or
--help(they may not want to touch the CLI at all), because ultimately, that would require them relying on their own understanding thereof.Impersonal docs, particularly if they're not written with accessibility for laypeople in mind, can't replace guides, and a general guide can't replace specific advice, and none of these can replace the assurance of having a universally helpful support community that will hold their hand if they need it and reliably bail them out if something goes wrong. The median user cannot possibly teach themselves, because they lack the fundamental knowledge and confidence to even assess their level of understanding. You and I, we're on the tech end of the distribution. We have a basic understanding and mindset. The median user does not.
They can't trust themselves, so they need someone else to trust. If we want to welcome more people into the FOSS ecosystem in general and Linux in particular, we need to be that someone, and they need to know that they will have that support.
It's not just about helping them, it's about the public impression. If they google for assistance and only find threads telling people to RTFM, they're scared to ask, scared to try even. The learning curve you take for granted, the skill "you need to improve", looks a lot like a wall from that point of view.
Linux is still perceived as a rather technical thing. We need to cultivate the impression - and the community to back it up - that it's not actually complicated, and that you'll readily find people to help you if you take the leap.
Improving tech literacy is an important thing, no doubt, but you can't get people on board by saying "you have to". You have to coax them over by promising easy returns on a small investment of time and effort, then let their curiosity lead them further - if they need deeper skills at all.
Ah yes, because you have the choice of so many different documentations for everything, and all those documentations make sure to point out the others in case you landed on the wrong one for you.
Doesn't have to be laziness. If your misconception is shattered, that's a shock. If they don't have anyone to ease them through that shock, they'll do the most natural thing: stay away. If you make it easy to get into, you'll surely have more success than by walling them off so that only those willing to climb can get into your walled garden.
I don't get now where you want to go now. If you want to know about computers then read, if not... just keep using things that marketing sells you. If you want to ask without reading, then better pay for a professional (or ask for someone close to you that knows computers). Like all Windows users do when they have issues. And this would apply online, if you don't pay them, why they need to read for you? Pay for the time professionals spend for you if you can't read. Normally people don't read complex documentation, they just need how to install some app or how to configure something from their desktop or printer drivers, pay or read how to do it, doesn't matter if you are using Windows or Linux, because Windows also crashes and have issues also, Linux is ready for users.
Anything new is hard, if they are used to Windows as most people, everyone would think Windows is easier than Linux, but it's just because they are used to the other OS. Get used to Linux. Use it, read how it works. Start small. Don't read complex documentation or even try to compile the kernel on your first day.
Let me clarify: I myself have used Linux as my only OS since the end of Win7 support, but I've used it via dualboot for anything not gaming even before. I'm fairly adept by now, so this whole conversation isn't about my personal learning.
It's about coaxing Windows users over to Linux. If you don't care about that, stop reading and stop replying, because that's what the whole thread was about and you clearly missed the point. If you do, we need to give people both a reason to switch and an easy transition.
Linux has a public image of "complicated" and will always have the hurdle of having to learn something different. The point is that we need to update the first (the public perception) and help people over the second as smoothly as possible. We need to project the impression that it's no longer complicated like it used to be, and if you need help with anything, there will be plenty of people willing to help you.
And that's where we get to the "RTFM" issue: People responding to questions with "You're on your own" harm that impression. A new user skimming a forum or googling some issue can't tell whether it's a simple question or a hard question, whether it's good documentation or bad documentation, all they see is someone asking for help and getting a "lol no". That reputation spreads, and it speaks to a self-centered culture where "figure it out yourself" isn't just acceptable, but the norm.
If you want to win people over, you have to welcome them in. That includes showing a willingness to help them.
Besides, isn't the whole point of FOSS to help each other out for free, to break the commercial cycle of enshittification and exploitation?
Sorry, I will use "a person" when trying to make examples not related with you.
I'm super obsessed with Linux, I always tell people to use Linux, I try even the older people to get into Linux, I tell friends to install it and I try to help them. I'm really obsessed with Linux system, I really love it, and it hurts me when people just gets scared when I mention Linux (because that happened to me, some people don't want to hear the "Linux" word).
I think that's what I was talking about Microsoft never going to allow to Linux be popular, they just want it to be a solution for programmers, they don't want people to see Linux for a daily OS. The marketing and mass media is the main issue, if more users uses Linux, more companies will focus their apps for Linux. Until then, we need to read git source pages to see if they made the app for us (anyway, Wine should be able to run it if the app doesn't have many requirements).
It is possible to buy computers with Linux OS already installed, so you can just open the browser and search what you want to know what to do on Linux, for example video editing, you can use Kdenlive and many YouTube tutorials for Linux and you would do it also if you had Windows OS, unless you paid for a teacher, but when someone never touched a Windows, normally they need to seek for tutorials or guides, Windows and Linux has, but Windows is limited and Linux allows you to do much more.
The "F" in FOSS stands for "Free" and refers to free as in freedom, not just "free as in no cost." You can commercialize your FOSS projects without problem, the whole point of FOSS is the freedom.
I think we're talking in circles here. My point is: Telling people to go read the docs contributes to the perception of the linux community as closed and unhelpful. That perception doesn't help with winning over more people. As you note:
But that cycle has to start somewhere, and until companies start picking up, we need to do it ourselves, for ideological reasons if not monetary ones. Telling people to start out with easy guides is good, but redirecting further questions to docs and git pages builds a wall.
Why should I do the reading for someone without pay? Because I can, I trust my understanding and I want to help them.
But there are hard and easy guides, just go to the easy guides. The times someone said to me to read the docs, they were right. Often when I want to start a post asking for help or reporting an issue I realize that issue has been reported already or documented before I finish writing it, because I do my searches while I write my issue adding context of it.
If your skills aren't good for that guide, start with something simple, I don't know what kind of issue happens that what you are explaining.
I do help anyone, no matter if they use Android, Linux, Windows, Apple... The best way to help them for me is to sit behind them and tell them what steps to take, often they ask me what to do, and then I tell them to read what is on the screen, the app window or the popup, and here I say, "just read, what does it say?" and the text they read is often the response to what they want to do.
That's what I mean: we're techies. We know what context may be relevant. We know how to read that documentation and we know how to search for it. When we read documentation, we can tell whether we understand it, we can try if a fix applies to our issue, we can recognise if a given issue description matched ours. When we read a message, we know what is or isn't a technical term and what they refer to. We know synonyms like folder and directory, we understand that a word document, powerpoint presentation or executable all are "files", we trust our understanding and our ability to compensate whatever we don't know with searches or educated guesses.
All of these things require understanding a lot of tech words and a degree of trust in your understanding, and that's where non-tech users hit a snag. I'll tell them "You don't need to buy a new Windows key to reinstall it, you can check your current one. Here's a good and detailed guide." They'll get back with "I don't know what that command thing is, it looks scary, I'm not doing that" because they don't trust themselves. It's literally a step by step guide for opening the cmd, entering a command and finding a relevant part of the text it produces, and they get scared that they'll mess it up because they have absolutely zero understanding of the components. They don't know what a command line is, they don't know what a text command is, they know nothing of what we take for granted.
They said they'd need someone to guide them through and basically hold their hand for it, someone to unfuck whatever they fuck up, or at least confirm that what they're doing is right, to help them understand the output and assure them that the text means exactly what they think it means.
When you sit behind them and tell them what to do, to just read the message without fear of not understanding, that's exactly the helping I mean. In order to even dare to try Linux, people need the assurance that, whatever their issue, someone will be there for them. And that assurance comes through the way we treat questions online - all question, not just the more complex ones, because the layperson can't tell the difference.
When they come asking for help, don't send them away. No matter how familiar the docs and git pages may be for you, don't just send them there. Show them what they have to do, where it is written, how it is written there and how to understand that writing. Guide them, and they'll be happier to follow.
As I said, because Linux is not popular, it's hard to know someone close to you that knows Linux to help you.
Now, with your example that you give here, let's say you want to learn how to use the Windows PowerShell things. If you don't have someone close, you would look for a professional to pay, if you don't want to pay, you would check for a YouTube guide and there are full of guides about it.
If you want to do the same with the Linux terminal, is the same exact phrase: "let's say you want to learn how to use the Linux terminal things. If you don't have someone close, you would look for a professional to pay, if you don't want to pay, you would check for a YouTube guide and there are full of guides about it."
Most of the people wants to play on their PC and don't want to mess with Linux, the people I know that doesn't play on their PC are still using the Linux I installed to them. And your example is something easy, and there are many guides on YouTube and blogs about it.
If someone responds with a "rtfm", should be because the question is about something complex not a common user do, what common people do on their computer it's all on YouTube guides.
I think those people that kept with Linux are those that doesn't play games or doesn't reject the idea from the beginning (denying learning something new).
You're still getting a fundamental detail wrong: Most non-tech people don't want to "learn (tool)", they want to "do (thing)" and (tool) happens to be part of the solution. But they don't search for "beginner's guide to (tool)", let a lone a professional to teach them, they search for "vague terms describing what I want to do in non-technical terms". They may get accurate results, useless results, results targeted at more technical users, or their choice of words may overlap with technical terms meaning something else and more complex.
If they click on a search result they (or google) think is relevant to their search and see an online forum of people responding bluntly, they'll leave. They don't know that the response is about something more complex. They can't possibly tell. All they see is a culture of "You're on your own, buddy". That impression may stick with them, may even spread, and create a wall between techies and non-techies.
My vision is one where they'd see helpful answers, even if they don't understand them, but they feel encouraged to ask. If it turns out this isn't actually related to their issue, someone will point them the right way. I want that to be the impression we create. That includes answering more complex questions. That would benefit both the non-techies feeling more welcome, the veterans that probably have already read the docs and found them wanting and the beginners that need help learning to understand docs.
"RTFM" should under no circumstances be considered a reasonable answer. If you don't want to help, don't. If you want to help, give an explanation while pointing at the relevant section of the docs. Piping up just to tell people to go away and not asking questions is a dick move.
If we want break corporate monopolies, we need to be better than them, particularly in User Experience. Poor User Experience includes poor Pre-Experience while deciding whether to use a product. That means we need to project a welcoming image all around, not just selectively.
Wrong, Linux need marketing. If we weren't doing it right then Linux wouldn't be the most important distro on all world, even your router, car, smartphone antennas and most of the things u see when walking on street uses Linux. If you are saying the problem are those that doesn't know how to search or use a computer, the problem is there, those people not learning correctly, as what you been saying "they don’t search for “beginner’s guide to (tool)”, let a lone a professional to teach them, they search for “vague terms describing what I want to do in non-technical terms”.", this particular phrase can be applied objectively to the people and not the system, as it would happen on Windows if they were using it, right? (that's why Windows users has more virus, it's easier to write a blog to run a .exe to solve your problem and newbies will do it and get infected) So who needs to do it better? I don't think the Linux community should do it better or anyone should tell them to do it better, if you think Linux community needs something, do it or help to do it, but don't tell them "you should do it better" while is a system based on trust and contributions, and the biggest and most important system in this world.
There are many distros trying to make it easy for people, improving the "User experience". I love KDE and as a user experience, I feel it's the smartest and decent desktop environment that actually exists, Windows misses the features and speed of KDE (I can even access to my smartphone storage with Dolphin + KDE Connect), while with MacOS... MacOS lacks much more, you can't even grid windows on corners, WTF..., and that's a nice user experience? People got marketing and started to use it to learn how it works, MacOS is an awful system, GNOME is x100 times better.
Sorry for the late reply.
Just what kind of marketing?
One issue is that Windows is perceived as simpler. People that don't know how to solve issues are more likely to use Windows than Linux, because they're less worried about running into issues on Windows. So the marketer would need to fix that perception, effectively communicate that it has become just as simple.
Another is that the anxiety of trying something new will never be zero for everyone. So the marketer would need to communicate that there are plenty of kind and welcoming people helping with the transition.
Then there is still the question of "who will help me with problems?" For Windows, there are way more guides and videos, forum threads and generally a wider range of assistance already available. I'm not talking about a senior lady taking her computer to the local computer shop for help, I'm talking about all the free stuff online. Linux can't quite match that in quantity. Again, in case it slipped by, Docs don't count as guides. They're generally not meant to guide people in doing something specific so much as provide a technical manual, usually written by technical people that weote the original software in the first place. So the marketer would need to compensate the quantity with quality and assure people they'll get better help than they would with Windows issues.
And finally, any (unknown) price tag is a potential red flag for people who already paid for Windows. Why should they pay again for a different system? So the marketer would need to communicate that the above - the help with transition, the additional support - are free of charge. I don't even think a one-time price tag for the Linux distro would necessarily be an issue, so long as people can be sure that whatever care they need afterwards doesn't cost extra.
And who would do that marketing?
Do you want to wait for a corporate saviour to come along, sell Linux to the masses and hope that they won't pull off some vendor lock-in shenanigans so they can enshittify ten years down the line?
Or do you want the Linux community to do that marketing ourselves, to be that help and support, to project the image that it's easy to switch to?
Who is the one that wants change? They need to put in the work. If we want the Year of the Linux Desktop, we need to make it an appealing desktop platform.
I'm trying to improve its image. I can't just do that myself. I'm trying to point out the necessity and the way to do it to help it improve that image, but ultimately, telling them why I think they should do something and what I think they should do is all I can. And that's the cornerstone or change: Someone needs to recommend it, and others need to follow and repeat that recommendation. I've heard this call elsewhere and I'm now trying to pass it on.
So? Do you expect people to just change? I'll repeat myself, but we need to pick them up where they are if we want them to come with us. With the right incentive, we may be able to coax some to change their approach, but for many people, that's just the way they work and they don't want to change. I don't think they should be gatekept for that, so I think we should accommodate them too.
On that, we agree unconditionally
All good, this is an online forum conversation, no time limits here. And if you'll dip and come back in four months to pick up the conversation, I'll be just as happy to continue.
This is why everything comes with a quick start 1 page guide AND a manual.
Even home appliances don't come with the full spec technical manual. They come with the user manual so you'd know how to use your appliance, not how to fix your appliance (with the exceptions being some easy to fix user errors). When people get technical errors on their home appliances they call a technician to fix those errors, because most people lack the technical knowledge to fix things themselves. And I imagine it's the same for you. I'm pretty sure you don't fix your own car. Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say "Just read the fucking manual and don't waste my time". What are you going to do? Read the manual that you didn't even know existed until that point and you'd first have to spend some time actually finding the manual (because some of those technical manuals are a fucking pain in the ass to find, if they're even readily available), or find another mechanic that would fix your car? What if all the mechanics tell you to go read the manual? How much of your own time would you be willing to invest into fixing an issue you didn't want to fix by yourself in the first place? What if someone offered to replace your entire car for free? Would you still spend time fixing your car or would you go "fuck it, I just need it to work"?
And that's the average Windows/Linux user. They just want an operating system that works. They don't want to understand all the technical stuff that goes on under the hood and when something breaks they want "a technician" to give them a quick solution, because knowing the inner workings of Linux is not a priority for them. Maybe they're the car mechanic that would fix your car and they've spent their time learning the inner works of a few dozen cars. People focus their time and attention on different things so getting angry at someone not wanting to learn Linux is like a car mechanic getting angry at you for not wanting to learn how your car works or a personal trainer getting angry because you don't know how your own body works etc.. Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.
More or less is what I was saying.
I said that you should pay the professional instead.
Depends on what you buy there is more or less doc, things I often read is what to not do to not break it and how to get it ready and "running" correctly, as I would do with a microwave or to put air on my car wheels (I always open the book to read the correct values of air bar pressure for the wheels).
Most Windows users neither want to know the inner working of Windows, they pay experts to fix issues, or they click .exe files.
I didn't say that, I said that they need to get used how Linux works, because most people are used to Windows, and they all expect Linux to work like a Windows. But I know that I know a lot about Linux without asking anyone, just reading wiki, docs, git projects... some blogs or even YouTube videos. And now, as experienced user for more than 10 years with Linux distros, all this is really easy, I often do pretty amazing stuff as hobby at home and all that by reading stuff on internet how to do it. Thanks to my skill of reading docs, I am working with people with university degrees with the same salary/benefits as me, but I do not have studies more than the mandatory. If you are not into computers, you can keep using Windows or try to learn how Linux works to get used to it. The problem is the marketing, I'm sure all of us had a Windows machine much before we touched a Linux, rarely a person starts using their first computer with a Linux distro.
Summary: Expect a Linux guru to tell you to read the documentation as a car mechanic would tell you to do the engineering degree to fix your car.
If you have someone close to you that knows what happens to your car, and they tell you how to fix it, and it works, congratulations, the same would happen if you need to fix your printer drivers. But that person won't tell you how to fix your car motor engine (I mean more complex component), the same happens with the Linux guru.
🫤 Sorry but I don't really see the problem here more than the capitalism system that we have. Microsoft will never allow Linux to be popular, that's why 99% of computers comes with Windows, the money rules the world.