this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Beehaw Support

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Support and meta community for Beehaw. Ask your questions about the community, technical issues, and other such things here.

A brief FAQ for lurkers and new users can be found here.

Our July 2023 financial update is here.

For a refresher on our philosophy, see also What is Beehaw?, The spirit of the rules, and Beehaw is a Community


This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

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Beehaw is a community of individuals and therefore does not have any specific political affiliation. At this point in time, we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are. I would suspect that many of them would identify as progressive because we are explicitly a safe space for minorities. What we stand for and the space that we're trying to make is compatible with many forms of politics. Unfortunately some political groups build themselves around and choose to elevate or tolerate hate speech. These are the only political groups that we are incompatible with. If any of it was unclear in any of the other posts, I will restate it all here. Beehaw does not tolerate hate speech. Beehaw is an explicitly safe space. We center and promote kindness because that is what we see and love in the world.

Some of the instances that we have chosen to defederate with have explicit political stances and ideologies. Their political stance and ideology had nothing to do with the choice to defederate. The choice to defederate was based on the amount of hate speech present on the instance and/or explicitly endorsing it. Since hate speech is not controlled on the instances that these users come from, we cannot expect them to change their behavior when participating on our instance. While users may exist on some of these platforms who do not spread hate speech, the choice to defederate is made to reduce the burden on our moderators and admins. Occasionally these instances or users from these instances will point their fingers at Beehaw and make claims about our political leanings or whether certain kinds of politics are banned. To be explicitly clear, the only kind of politics that are banned here are those which enable hate speech such as fascism.

Politics on the internet


Many, if not most discussions of politics on the internet are poisoned by virtue signaling. When they are not poisoned by virtue signaling, discussions are often just ways to vent emotions. I believe the reason for this is the platforms themselves and the incentives to engage online. On the internet I can adjust my level of anonymity. An adjustable level of anonymity allows me to change how I speak to others while simultaneously mitigating or removing any consequences to myself. This of course varies based on the platform and what I'm attempting to accomplish, but in the context of speaking with others on the internet, I can be relatively consequence free to say whatever I want on most major platforms. Particularly negative or hateful behavior might cause me to be banned off of a platform, but through the use of technology or other means, I can simply create another account (or migrate to another platform) and continue the same speech. In malicious terms, I do not have to worry about managing someone else's emotions or my connection to them.

In real life, on the other hand, it is not as easy to pass myself off as someone else. I must be much more aware of how I speak to others because consequences can be much more dire. When discussing politics with others, I may alienate them or myself and so I may choose to be more open to listen rather than soapboxing. The people I'm interacting with may be a regular part of my life and may be people I have come to respect. Understanding how they think might be vitally important to maintaining or improving our connection.

I am presenting the internet and real life as two ends of a spectrum but it is more complicated than that. There are people who are very visible and tied to their identities on the internet just as there are people in real life who use false identities created to mask their true identity. Interactions vary in level of connection, platform, and who happens to know who we are in other spaces on the internet. There are plenty of people who talk on the internet about politics with the explicit goal of changing the minds of others. Some of these individuals are not using this as an outlet to manage their own emotions. These generalizations are presented in this way because I need to talk about these patterns in the context of the platform Lemmy. I'm asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

I would encourage all of you to think about incentives when presented with political drama online. It is easy to get engaged because politics has a direct and often scary effect on our lives. In this community, it is not difficult to find individuals who are regularly marginalized by politicians. Especially for these minorities, it is completely valid to get emotionally invested in politics and I would personally encourage doing so on some level, but we need to think carefully about the other parties present in a conversation and whether they are willing to listen or incentivized to do so. For the people who are hiding behind anonymity and posting to vent their emotional frustrations with the system they are likely not invested in the community we are growing here and it may be appropriate and healthy to ignore or disengage with these folks.

Forking


It is in this political context that forking from the main Lemmy development has been presented. People are quick to point to potential upsides of forking, but the upsides are an after thought presented as a means to bolster or justify forking. These justifications are for what is ultimately a moral issue. The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral. To anyone posing this question, I would ask them to consider what other technology they use every day and to trace the roots back to each invention along the path to today's day and age. The world has a colonialist history, rife with violence and immoral behavior. Unless you retreat the woods and recreate technologies yourself from scratch, it's impossible to live in a modern society without benefiting from technology built on countless dead bodies in history.

We do not have the technical expertise to create a new tool from scratch - all we can do is leverage tools that already exist to create communities like this. At the time we created this instance, the service we decided on was Lemmy. We did so with awareness of discussions around the politics of the main instance and developers. I think we've done a decent job outlining what we intend to do with this instance and explicitly made strong stances against hate speech and other behavior we do not agree with, including where we disagree with them. When taken in the context of computing in general, these political leanings are also not unique in their social and political harm as compared to some of the tech giants out there. The same is true in comparison to some of the famous tech inventors and innovators; in comparison to the history of computer technology; in comparison to the exploitation and problematic mining of rare earth minerals used in technology; in comparison to the damages we cause to the earth to create the energy used to power our servers. We can follow this path of thinking back all that we want to, and ultimately it's just not a particularly fruitful discussion to zero in on whether the political leaning of the main developers and instance are in perfect alignment with what we want to accomplish. We are not explicitly endorsing their viewpoint by using their software and we are not tied to using this software forever.

I cannot stress enough how much bandwidth has been taken up by these discussions in recent days. It been brought up as frequently as every few hours across Discord, Matrix, inbox replies, comment replies, new threads, and other forms of communication. We're currently dealing with a lot of other issues like keeping the server running, expanding to add more communities, moderating the communities amidst a huge influx of users posting and reply content from other instances, managing expenses, optimizing our server, planning for the future, and so much more. We cannot entertain philosophical discussions on all of the wonderful things we 'could do' when we're struggling to keep up with what we're already currently doing. We have not yet received a serious proposal for a fork which details operational needs when it comes to the maintenance, support, and resources needed to accomplish and maintain it. Simply put we do not believe a fork is necessary at this time.

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[–] CannaVet 49 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I settled on lemmy.world, but yeah 90% of the lemmy related discussion I see is "Why doesn't this work like Reddit and when can I expect it to work like Reddit?"

I've tried to do my part in explaining this isn't meant to be Reddit, but I'm already seeing an increase in hostility directed at devs for the lack of central authority (which is the thing they're fleeing in the first place but fuck me for pointing that out lol.)

[–] SterlingVapor 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Hey server buddy!

I think it's a mindset - with a company at the head, if you don't like the product, you should complain.

They need to understand this isn't a product - it's a project. It's not mature yet, and it's trying to solve a very difficult problem - how do you make social media healthier and more resistant to exploitation. The design they've settled on is complex and ambitious, and I'm pretty impressed it's been able to scale up this well

All that being said, the main complaint I've noticed (and I think is valid and it often gets dismissed) - to sign up users are given a choice (which server to join), and to make an informed choice there's a minimum of a few pages of required reading

It definitely matters, and the way you're presented this choice is pretty overwhelming

I'm working on a Lemmy client, and my thought is this - break up the options. Give users a choice of 3-5 options with a "next" button and a search option.

Another is the difficulty of finding and subscribing to communities - I've noticed a huge improvement with some recent changes, but there's always more that can be done

Anything else you've noticed? Particularly if it's something to keep in mind as I write the app

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I just migrated from Reddit, and liked what I read about BeeHaw. Signup was a bit confusing, but eventually just sent an email to the team, wrote a bit about myself (education, family, interested, political leanings, probably massively oversharing 😅), and got an invite a few minutes later.

So far I really like the tone in here, and especially the quality of the comments. Feels like Reddit at its best, nice and helpful people.

I was on Reddit for 15 years (plus a few years lurking), and it's been my largest casual time-sink throughout. Leaving sucks. In the end, I couldn't accept losing my Android client — 10 year anniversary with Relay a few days ago — the thought of having to use the official app made me gag, as probably 95% of my Reddit time is on mobile. So I left for BeeHaw/Lemmy, and now I have to work with something that's (from a UX standpoint) probably even worse 😅

It's the principle, though; they're fucking over their users so incredibly hard, and I don't want to be a part of that anymore. Even if that means having to use a platform that isn't mature yet. Fuck it, I've been here before, and I can cope with having to start over again. I hope Lemmy can get to a point where there's a great experience to be had on mobile (I'm currently on/in Jerboa, btw). Maybe you're the one to fix it? 😍

So — a few things that I'm struggling with that might be worth considering for your app:

  • The ability to hide read/upvoted posts! This is my main pain point, by a very wide margin. As a Relay user, I'm used to a fresh screen with fresh new posts every time I open the app. Not so in Jerboa. Open app, and there is (potentially) a very long scroll ahead of me too get past posts I've already read and upvoted. I can look for upvotes, but I don't upvotes everything, so not a perfect indicator. The only functional one seems to be a slightly greyed-out post title (dark theme). My current understanding (very limited, granted) is that this is a Lemmy thing in general, not just Jerboa. Something about lacking the ability to react to a post being previously viewed æ upvoted? Either way, I'd love a setting that would let me hide all posts that I've upvoted, or hide all posts that I've read (clicked). Also the ability to manually hide a post from the main list view (get rid of something without having to upvoted or click on/into). In combination with a Refresh-button, maybe?

  • ~~Better options for sorting posts (newest / popular / etc.). Probably also a Lemmy thing.~~ Sorry, this seems to be there already, I'd just missed it somehow.

  • Not having to manually scroll this text box up constantly because what I'm typing is disappearing behind the keyboard. Seriously, Jerboa? 😑

  • The ability to hide the downvote button, probably on a per-instance basis, as some allow downvotes, and some don't.

  • The ability to turn off excerpts on the front page.

Sorry, have to go to a meeting, will try to come back to this later and add more suggestions 😊

Good luck with the app! Can't wait to see it 😃 It's for Android, right? 😬

[–] Baizey 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Careful, your æøå is spilling out :p

And I'm coming from a surprisingly similar place, replace relay with boost and and I'd have thought you were stalking me

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

All that being said, the main complaint I’ve noticed (and I think is valid and it often gets dismissed) - to sign up users are given a choice (which server to join), and to make an informed choice there’s a minimum of a few pages of required reading

It definitely matters, and the way you’re presented this choice is pretty overwhelming

I’m working on a Lemmy client, and my thought is this - break up the options. Give users a choice of 3-5 options with a “next” button and a search option.

I would even go further and allow a "don't care" option which randomly assigns new users to an instance with auto accept. Even make this the default.

Those who want can have the option to get into the details and make an individual decision.

[–] joyjoy 2 points 1 year ago

Sounds like we need a site like https://choosealicense.com/ but for popular lemmy instances.

[–] SterlingVapor 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's a very good point, I think that's better from a UX perspective and easier on me.

So while we're on the subject, any thoughts on how to pick this server? Ideally, I'd like to pick servers that are general interest, are underutilized, are on the smaller side, and are likely to stick around. I think I could find data for most of that sooner or later (I'll probably start by looking for server lists and having a hardcoded backup), and if I get enough traction I might look at using statistics and llama to profile them (the project I shelved to work on this could be repurposed to do the heavy lifting)

Any other criteria or consideration I should keep in mind? Practical or not, these days all sort of wacky things are becoming possible even for individuals

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I’d like to pick servers that are general interest, are underutilized, are on the smaller side, and are likely to stick around.

Sounds great! One simple thought: Leave it up to the individual instances to decide wether they want new users, wether they can handle the load. If they think not, they can close themselves for new registrations and you would automatically (?) choose others instead.

If you do want to make a more informed decision from your side, do you know these tools/sites?

All three show stats which might inform your decision. The last two include up time. The last one includes a number indicating how many other instances this instance has blocked / defederated (3rd column from the right, 'BI'). The last also has a section Recommended Instances, which seems to have had a similar thought process to ours.


I also liked this idea to have something like https://choosealicense.com/. A few basic questions to roughly guide the selection process. Relevant questions might be:

  • unrestricted access to/from other instances <--> moderated safe space
  • themed instance (this probably only makes sense with more specification coming from the user) <--> general purpose
  • ? (out of ideas for now, but less is better, haha)

Generally, I think the registration process should be as quick and simple as possible by default. Most users cannot or want not make an informed decision. Those who can and want will find a small "advanced options" link. I also hope we rework https://join-lemmy.org/ one day, to move the server talk and technical details out of sight for the same reason.

Thank you for adding to the lemmyverse!

[–] taj 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah. As a project, it requires input from users, not just a company.

[–] solstice 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I just want a super easy clean simple interface which is what attracted me to reddit in the first place. I feel like anything more complicated than "simple" is a step in the wrong direction. I'll withhold judgment for a while until I've settled in but like many other new users I'm finding the learning curve challenging.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know that the developers of lemmy intended this to be a space mirroring reddit, nor did they expect a mass exodus of users from reddit jumping on to lemmy.

[–] solstice 2 points 1 year ago

Oh for sure, I totally get that. I don't hide my confusion, but I'm also understanding and sympathetic to the lemmy devs who have to deal with millions of new users almost overnight.

[–] GONADS125 1 points 1 year ago

I would recommend Jerboa for Lemmy if you're on android/Google play. I've got it in list view with the font size customized to my liking and I think that it's a very streamlined and simple feel, reminding me of the early Alien Blue days on IOS.

As a transplant from reddit myself, I am loving my experience with Lemmy thru this app. Still taking some getting used to tho.

[–] CannaVet 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's my entire point though - You're asking for a Reddit clone, and Lemmy isn't meant to be a Reddit clone. If you don't like it, that's fine, but people need to stop demanding the devs shift gears and make it a Reddit clone.

[–] solstice 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I disagree that I'm asking for a reddit clone. I'm saying sites like reddit and google were very successful in large part due to their extremely clean minimalist user friendly design. In an era where everything now "just works" it seems like a regression to increase complications.

[–] CannaVet 1 points 1 year ago

But that "just works" comes at a price, namely the price that has sent you here in the first place, a central organizational authority. It "just works" because everything feeds through and is owned by Reddit/Google/whoever. Technology isn't magic, friend. You can have easy peasy use at the cost of zero control, or ultimate control at the cost of ease of use.

Lemmy is designed to lean towards the control side which means more moving parts. There are Reddit clones out there that offer that same "ease of access" singular control point if you just want to jump from ruler to ruler, if you want to stay on Lemmy then you need to understand that yes you need to understand how to navigate and use the services because IT'S NOT REDDIT and people need to stop demanding that it work like Reddit.

It's particularly frustrating, because those options DO exist. Exiles could absolutely just go to one of them and get the exact same experience. However, Lemmy got some buzz and everyone wants to be the cool kids even if they have zero interest in learning, and now half the posts are "DEVS WTF MAKE IT REDDIT" Of course I'm annoyed. If you want Reddit, go back to Reddit or find a clone and stop demanding not Reddit become Reddit.