this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
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That's not Value. "Risk" and "liability" aren't Value. Nothing is being produced here. There is risk, and there is liability, but that in and of itself is not Value. Additionally, the "risk" in being a landlord is miniscule, even if we take the false pretense of risk creating value, the difference between the minor risk and massive, endless profits from the same property forever is nonsense, the landlord continues to profit over and above their initial investment.
What do you think Value is?
I’m not sure how you define value, but I’m using it to mean “the price or amount that someone is willing to pay in the market” this could be for a tangle thing, like the house itself, or a service, like renting it.
My point is that landlords successfully find willing persons to rent their house for some amount of money. Therefore there is by definition value because it’s happening, whether this is ethically OK or being rented for a fair amount is a separate argument.
When I was a university student I didn’t have enough capital to buy an apartment, but I found value in being able to rent one.
That's close to the truth, but not quite. Supply and Demand distort the price around a central Value.
Not really, the fact that something is purchased doesn't mean the "risk" or "liability" created the Value behind it.
You found it useful, ie renting allowed you to fulfill the Use-Value you needed, shelter. You appear to be using Subjective Value "Theory," ie the idea that Value is a hallucination different from person to person, which is of course wrong.
I’m not using value in this way, I literally googled “ value in a market economy” because this is what I meant by value and I cut and pasted the common definition of this usage. There is no hallucination or subjectivity, I’m using value to objectively mean what people are actively paying for. If something exists in the market, and it is being exchanged for something in return, it has “value” by this definition.
You are indeed using SVT, where Value simply means a good is useful. We aren't talking about the same thing.
"Subjective value theory" as opposed to marx's "theory of value" which is sometimes mistakenly referred to as "labor theory of value" actually an earlier development that Marx refined into his own theory
I think we have different definitions of value and I will not pretend to be an economic theorist, this is out of my depth. My argument comes from a very practical perspective of supply and demand. There is obviously demand for renting property otherwise it wouldn’t exist.
I do think that capitalism at large creates an economic barrier and if one is below the barrier it is difficult to build capital and if you’re above the barrier it is easy. Picking on just land-lording is only picking at one instance of some larger systemic issues that capitalism brings with it. This will not change unless the government adds regulations that add “fairness” to pure capitalism.
This is an impossible dream. Capitalism demands that the majority of people are perpetually in an underclass (with some shuffling of who specifically is in it). You can't have an entire population of small business owners, most people need to be wage-laborers or some equivalent.
I didn’t say anywhere that regulation will make it work or make it better, I just meant that it will certainly not change without some form of regulation.
I’m also not claiming that capitalism is perfect or even good, all economic theories are idealized, I actually don’t think there is a magical system with a simple set of rules that will actually work. The real world is complicated and messy and has exceptions all over the place.
I think there probably is some mixture of free market and socialist ideas that do work, and most countries work like this today.
It really frustrates me when people talk about "mixing capitalism and socialism." Whatever thing you're talking about is not what socialism is. Socialism is not when the government does stuff. Socialism is not when the government uses taxpayer money to fund social services or welfare. Socialism is the workers controlling the means of production.
Eclecticism doesn't work, it imagines that it can pick out the best of everything, but in reality it ends up either being fundamentally dysfunctional because you can't just decontextualize things from their theoretical framework and have it all work out, or they just end up being one thing with a partial veneer of other things. Almost every country you thought of when you wrote that comment unambiguously has nothing to do with socialism, they're just versions of liberalism that believe in some level of welfare, etc.
It really frustrates me when people talk in absolutes, is there no room for nuance and grey area? I didn’t claim what socialism or what capitalism is, but it’s definitely true that today's economies do borrow ideas from various economic theories. How is that a controversial statement at all?
Some things aren't compatible, and trying to combine them results in having one with the skin of the other. Liberal democracy, for instance, is incompatible with monarchy, and we can see in the UK for instance how the liberals kept on gaining ground until the monarchy became totally symbolic (a very expensive symbol, but a symbol nonetheless). If the workers having democratic control of the means of production precludes capitalists having plutocratic control, it's very simple. Put in the same environment, these two forces would bear what Marxists call "class antagonisms" towards each other and struggle until one was subordinated to the other.
The US (we'll use that example because I know it the best) does borrow ideas from various economic theories, those being various sects of classical liberalism, Keynesianism, and the odd bit of Austrian School or Christo-fascist policy. That is to say, different sects of capitalist ideology. You do not see policies based on Marxian economics or anything of the sort, it's just empirically not how US policy gets written, and that shouldn't surprise you.
Supply and Demand are only part of the factor, they orbit around Value. What determines the price of a commodity when Supply and Demand cover each other? The answer is Value.
I pick on all of Capitalism, I'm a Communist. Landlording just happens to be the topic at hand. At that matter, regulations and "fairness" will never fix Capitalism, just make its worst aspects more bearable until it collapses under itself.
Yes and renting of houses pretty uniformly exists under all market conditions I.e. even when supply and demand “cover each other”. So by your definition there must still be some value since it has a place in the market.
The value offered is a service, just like a hotel room. What is an alternative to renting that could enable someone to have a place to live without having the capital to buy property?
The Demand never covers the Supply in the housing market because houses are in limited supply. Renters are held hostage.
The alternative is government-owned and provided housing.
This isn’t true, there are certainly cases where supply outweighs demand and landlords are unable to rent their house. It doesn’t mean that renters could suddenly afford to buy it though.
I’ve yet to see where a government subsidized housing project ever turns into a desirable place to live. Unless you go full communism across the board where the government literally controls all housing, but this is extreme and pre-supposes that you are in alignment with the ideals and goals of your government. Historically this doesn’t seem to end up serving the common person better than a free market would.
All the top countries ranked by standard of living have some form of capitalist economy with some gov regulation safeguards in place.
There are a few errors, here.
This isn't true. If Landlords lowered their rent to 0, there would be people renting from them, unless you mean literal ghost towns. Around areas where people live, lowering your price will get you renters.
There are a number of errors here.
Red Vienna is an example of government housing with great results even in a Capitalist country.
"Full Communism" has no such requirement for everyone to be "aligned in ideals and goals with government," whatever that means.
Historically, housing rates were far better in Socialist and post-Socialist countries than Capitalist countries, you pulled that "fact" right out of your ass.
Judging systems by their internal static snapshots and not by how they fit within the broader system and their trajectories is the peak of Idealism. The Nordic Countries, which you are referencing, enjoy high safety nets because they are Imperialist and drastically exploit the Global South, they are not affording these off their own backs. Additionally, they are seeing sliding worker protections and decreased unionization rates due to being Capitalist, and Capitalists slowly clawing back more profits via eroding the safety nets.
Sure, but this supports my original point, this is because they dropped the price below market value implying that there is a value to begin with. We already established we’re using different definitions of value so it probably not worth arguing past each other.
But your example here isn’t lasting, it collapsed. The vast majority of economic systems have converged to some degree of capitalism and it’s “working” by the definition that it prevails.
I didn’t say that there’s a requirement, I said that if I don’t agree with the value that my labor provides against what the proletariat has prescribed to it, then I’m just SOL. Why should I go through all of the additional work and schooling and effort of becoming a doctor if it’s valued equivalently or close to something that requires much less effort?
There was no fact, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to, I was stating that it doesn’t seem to have worked out purely because capitalist economies are most prevalent today and it seems like most common folk choose to live in countries with free markets.
This 3rd point of yours isn’t a good argument because you can also say that housing rates are great in Syria, but it doesn’t mean that many people would choose to live there.
Red Vienna's housing policies remain.
What on Earth do you mean here? Communism isn't when everyone gets paid the same thing.
Again, you have no analysis of trajectories, nor how they fit in the grand scheme of things. You ignored my entire section on that, actually.
Again, analyze trajectories and context. Socialist countries have done the most to uplift their population, far moreso than Capitalist countries. Capitalist countries in the Global North rely on brutal exploitation of the Global South to even exist in the first place. If someone is rich, and they gain their wealth by stealing from everyone else, why are you saying that seems to be the best model?
I thought communism was when property and wealth are communally owned. The extreme of this is that higher value labor doesn’t get proportionally rewarded at an individual level. In other words, it tends to favor equality of outcome over equality of opportunity.
You're correct in that it's about communal ownership of property, yes, but the idea that labor isn't rewarded proportionally is false. Higher skill or more intense labor creates more Value with respect to that which is required to create it. In Critique of the Gotha Programme, Marx explains what would likely happen as the means of production are sufficiently advanced:
-Karl Marx
I’m not claiming that capitalism is perfect or objectively good, all economic theories are idealized and I don’t think there is a magical system with a simple set of rules that actually works.
The real world is complicated and messy and has exceptions and bad actors. Capitalism clearly needs some form of regulation without runaway effects, but I think I would prefer to live in a free market at least to some degree. I personally cannot afford to be a landlord, but I also don’t think that it’s unfair for them to exist.
All of that is vibes-based, I'm asking you to do any analysis. If you don't want to, that's fine, but then just say that outright.
You asked me what my opinion was and I gave it. If it’s not up to the rigor that you expect from a meme thread on Lemmy then my bad.
And fwiw idealized economic theory is mostly vibes based anyway. The only way to truly scrutinize the theory is to test it in the real world, and most countries have converged on something that borrows from both capitalism and communism. Probably some mixture of these two extremes is where we net out.
Again, looking at snapshots without analyzing their trajectories or contexts is the peak of idealism. This is vibes-based, and is why you need to read theory if you are going to make claims. Capitalist countries are not a "mixture of the two extremes."
Yes they are, the US and most European countries have free markets, but they also have social welfare programs.
Social welfare programs are not Socialism. This is why I am trying to convince you to familiarize yourself with the concepts people are discussing before asserting your opinion on said subject, unless you are just trying to learn.
Ok c’mon you’re just being pedantic now. Social welfare programs are definitely inspired/borrowed ideas from socialism and communism. Social security is literally a form of comunal wealth.
I’ll freely admit I’m not an expert in economic theory, but I am entitled to my opinion and to have discussions about it. I don’t have a PhD in the field, next time I’ll be more careful on c/memes.
Social Welfare Programs are concessions made when there is risk of revolt. They themselves do not make a system more or less Socialist, what determines if a system is Socialist is who is in power, the Proletariat, or the Bourgeoisie, and where it is trending.
You're entitled to your opinion, yes. However, if you haven't done any investigation into a subject, why do you feel the need to speak on it? You don't need a PhD, but doing some research into a topic makes conversation constructive.
What I disagree with is when you insist strongly on something in the face of contradictory evidence or analysis, without providing ample evidence in return. That's why Communists have a saying, "no investigation, no right to speak."
Isn’t this an argument that could be applied against communism though? Communism is government regulation to enforce fairness, if it can’t fix capitalism, why would it work in a communist economy?
Your comment reminded me of a quote about the Bolsheviks and the idea of communist "equality"
long quote
Fantastic quote, great reference.
That's not what Communism is. Communism is the process of working through contradictions (ie the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie) through Historical Development. Socialism is established via Proletarian control of Capital, rather than Bourgeois, not just regulation or "fairness."