this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
1290 points (96.7% liked)
Memes
45661 readers
1281 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
There are a few errors, here.
This isn't true. If Landlords lowered their rent to 0, there would be people renting from them, unless you mean literal ghost towns. Around areas where people live, lowering your price will get you renters.
There are a number of errors here.
Red Vienna is an example of government housing with great results even in a Capitalist country.
"Full Communism" has no such requirement for everyone to be "aligned in ideals and goals with government," whatever that means.
Historically, housing rates were far better in Socialist and post-Socialist countries than Capitalist countries, you pulled that "fact" right out of your ass.
Judging systems by their internal static snapshots and not by how they fit within the broader system and their trajectories is the peak of Idealism. The Nordic Countries, which you are referencing, enjoy high safety nets because they are Imperialist and drastically exploit the Global South, they are not affording these off their own backs. Additionally, they are seeing sliding worker protections and decreased unionization rates due to being Capitalist, and Capitalists slowly clawing back more profits via eroding the safety nets.
Sure, but this supports my original point, this is because they dropped the price below market value implying that there is a value to begin with. We already established we’re using different definitions of value so it probably not worth arguing past each other.
But your example here isn’t lasting, it collapsed. The vast majority of economic systems have converged to some degree of capitalism and it’s “working” by the definition that it prevails.
I didn’t say that there’s a requirement, I said that if I don’t agree with the value that my labor provides against what the proletariat has prescribed to it, then I’m just SOL. Why should I go through all of the additional work and schooling and effort of becoming a doctor if it’s valued equivalently or close to something that requires much less effort?
There was no fact, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to, I was stating that it doesn’t seem to have worked out purely because capitalist economies are most prevalent today and it seems like most common folk choose to live in countries with free markets.
This 3rd point of yours isn’t a good argument because you can also say that housing rates are great in Syria, but it doesn’t mean that many people would choose to live there.
Red Vienna's housing policies remain.
What on Earth do you mean here? Communism isn't when everyone gets paid the same thing.
Again, you have no analysis of trajectories, nor how they fit in the grand scheme of things. You ignored my entire section on that, actually.
Again, analyze trajectories and context. Socialist countries have done the most to uplift their population, far moreso than Capitalist countries. Capitalist countries in the Global North rely on brutal exploitation of the Global South to even exist in the first place. If someone is rich, and they gain their wealth by stealing from everyone else, why are you saying that seems to be the best model?
I’m not claiming that capitalism is perfect or objectively good, all economic theories are idealized and I don’t think there is a magical system with a simple set of rules that actually works.
The real world is complicated and messy and has exceptions and bad actors. Capitalism clearly needs some form of regulation without runaway effects, but I think I would prefer to live in a free market at least to some degree. I personally cannot afford to be a landlord, but I also don’t think that it’s unfair for them to exist.
All of that is vibes-based, I'm asking you to do any analysis. If you don't want to, that's fine, but then just say that outright.
You asked me what my opinion was and I gave it. If it’s not up to the rigor that you expect from a meme thread on Lemmy then my bad.
And fwiw idealized economic theory is mostly vibes based anyway. The only way to truly scrutinize the theory is to test it in the real world, and most countries have converged on something that borrows from both capitalism and communism. Probably some mixture of these two extremes is where we net out.
Again, looking at snapshots without analyzing their trajectories or contexts is the peak of idealism. This is vibes-based, and is why you need to read theory if you are going to make claims. Capitalist countries are not a "mixture of the two extremes."
Yes they are, the US and most European countries have free markets, but they also have social welfare programs.
Social welfare programs are not Socialism. This is why I am trying to convince you to familiarize yourself with the concepts people are discussing before asserting your opinion on said subject, unless you are just trying to learn.
Ok c’mon you’re just being pedantic now. Social welfare programs are definitely inspired/borrowed ideas from socialism and communism. Social security is literally a form of comunal wealth.
I’ll freely admit I’m not an expert in economic theory, but I am entitled to my opinion and to have discussions about it. I don’t have a PhD in the field, next time I’ll be more careful on c/memes.
Social Welfare Programs are concessions made when there is risk of revolt. They themselves do not make a system more or less Socialist, what determines if a system is Socialist is who is in power, the Proletariat, or the Bourgeoisie, and where it is trending.
You're entitled to your opinion, yes. However, if you haven't done any investigation into a subject, why do you feel the need to speak on it? You don't need a PhD, but doing some research into a topic makes conversation constructive.
What I disagree with is when you insist strongly on something in the face of contradictory evidence or analysis, without providing ample evidence in return. That's why Communists have a saying, "no investigation, no right to speak."
I thought communism was when property and wealth are communally owned. The extreme of this is that higher value labor doesn’t get proportionally rewarded at an individual level. In other words, it tends to favor equality of outcome over equality of opportunity.
You're correct in that it's about communal ownership of property, yes, but the idea that labor isn't rewarded proportionally is false. Higher skill or more intense labor creates more Value with respect to that which is required to create it. In Critique of the Gotha Programme, Marx explains what would likely happen as the means of production are sufficiently advanced:
-Karl Marx