this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2024

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Dutch beach volleyball player convicted of rape is booed again, louder, in second match of Olympics (apnews.com)

submitted 4 months ago by MicroWave to c/world

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Dutch beach volleyball player Steven van de Velde, who served time in prison after he was convicted of raping a 12-year-old girl, won his second match at the Paris Olympics and received an even harsher reaction from the crowd on Wednesday than for his first match.

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[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This is what you said:

I didn’t say randomly selected, I said selected with some kind of fair and democratic process.

If you didn't mean an election, what did you mean? What is a democratic process that doesn't involve a vote?

[–] sandbox 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yes, correct. Plurality or majority voting, which is how we usually talk about elections, necessarily imposes the will of a majority upon minorities, and is thus not democratic.

Again, I’m not saying I have all the answers here - acting like I know best, better than everyone else, is itself not democratic. My position is, and always has been, that we need to get together and collectively determine the answers to these questions through consensus.

All I can share with you are some of my own ideas, which aren’t anywhere near as inclusive as I would like. I try to consider other people as best I can, and I try to think of as many bases to cover as I can, but I am imperfect and I acknowledge that.

But ultimately the answer to your question is generally going to be consensus-building and involving all concerned people in the decision making process, in some way.

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Please answer the question: what is a democratic process that doesn’t involve a vote?

[–] sandbox 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I did - consensus building. Please google consensus decision making.

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This talks all about voting, so I don't think I'm the one who needs to look it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

[–] sandbox 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I did a CTRL-F for “vote” and “voting” and didn’t see it mentioned once.

Look, I can tell that you’re getting a bit upset, it’s quite a shock, with having your world view challenged, so I’m going to back off for a little while and give you the opportunity to reflect on what you’ve learned and maybe do a bit of reading yourself to explore these topics a bit more. I know it’s a lot to take in all at once - there’s no pressure, you’ll get there, you’re a reasonable fellow, so I have every confidence in you. I look forward to building consensus with you in the near future and wish you a really pleasant evening. Take care!

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Then your computer is broken.

Consensus decision-making is an alternative to commonly practiced group decision-making processes.[19] Robert's Rules of Order, for instance, is a guide book used by many organizations. This book on Parliamentary Procedure allows the structuring of debate and passage of proposals that can be approved through a form of majority vote.

Stand aside: A "stand aside" may be registered by a group member who has a "serious personal disagreement" with a proposal, but is willing to let the motion pass. Although stand asides do not halt a motion, it is often regarded as a strong "nay vote" and the concerns of group members standing aside are usually addressed by modifications to the proposal. Stand asides may also be registered by users who feel they are incapable of adequately understanding or participating in the proposal.

This one was literally in bold and large print:

Modified Borda Count vote

In Designing an All-Inclusive Democracy (2007), Emerson proposes a consensus oriented approach based on the Modified Borda Count (MBC) voting method. The group first elects, say, three referees or consensors. The debate on the chosen problem is initiated by the facilitator calling for proposals. Every proposed option is accepted if the referees decide it is relevant and conforms with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The referees produce and display a list of these options. The debate proceeds, with queries, comments, criticisms and/or even new options. If the debate fails to come to a verbal consensus, the referees draw up a final list of options - usually between 4 and 6 - to represent the debate. When all agree, the chair calls for a preferential vote, as per the rules for a Modified Borda Count. The referees decide which option, or which composite of the two leading options, is the outcome. If its level of support surpasses a minimum consensus coefficient, it may be adopted.[30][31]

There's more, but that's enough.

Also, I am not upset and your condescension is noted. Hierarchies are bad, talking down to people as though they are your inferiors, on the other hand...

[–] sandbox 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It’s like I told you, I’m an imperfect person - and apparently Wikipedia on mobile does some kind of lazy loading thing where CTRL+F doesn’t work. Anyways, like I said, you only just learned of this concept like a minute ago, so finding the word “vote” isn’t a magic gotcha. Go learn about it before you argue about it, because you’re just being wrong and obstinate. It’s late for me anyways so I need to get some sleep, if you want to continue being wrong about stuff I’m happy to correct you tomorrow.

Sorry for being a condescending prick - as above, I’m not a perfect guy, or even really a good guy, I’m just trying my best and sometimes people being stubbornly ignorant get the better of me. I mean what I said though - approach what I’ve spoken about with an open mind and a willingness to actually change and I’m sure you’ll at least find an alternative worth considering. Good night!

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Anyways, like I said, you only just learned of this concept like a minute ago,

And what you say determines reality does it?

Sorry for being a condescending prick

Cool, maybe start with not assuming what I do or don't already know about in the very same comment.

sometimes people being stubbornly ignorant get the better of me.

Well, didn't take long for that apology to stop meaning anything. Less than one sentence.

[–] sandbox 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Good morning!

Don’t mistake my apology - it wasn’t for considering (or calling) you ignorant of the topic, because you are. Nothing wrong with that, we’re all ignorant of a whole lot of stuff. I’m ignorant about a massive array of topics.

There’s a really bad inclination of redditors to think that if you don’t know everything then you’re a fool, and that’s just not true. So let’s not do that - let’s be honest when we don’t know something, and take it as an opportunity to learn, rather than digging our heels in and refusing to budge.

Anyways, I hope you took the opportunity to learn about consensus decision making - I know it isn’t perfect, it’s certainly got its flaws, but I think it improves on simple plurality or majority voting by quite a lot. There are quite a few different models as hopefully you are now aware. I’m curious what you feel the best model for decision making is, what is your ideal? I’ve spoken a lot about my ideas but you’ve not really shared much yourself, except for your enthusiasm for rules. I’d be really glad to hear your perspective.

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Cool, except, like I said, I'm not ignorant on the topic. You just decided I was. That's how I knew that consensus decision-making involved voting despite you saying it didn't and saying the article (which you obviously never read) didn't talk about voting.

There’s a really bad inclination of redditors to think that if you don’t know everything then you’re a fool, and that’s just not true. So let’s not do that - let’s be honest when we don’t know something, and take it as an opportunity to learn, rather than digging our heels in and refusing to budge.

And yet you keep lying about me being ignorant on this topic.

Anyways, I hope you took the opportunity to learn about consensus decision making

My favorite part about this is that, as I told you in a previous comment, I already told you I knew about it so you're not only lying, you're gaslighting.

Condescending, lying, gaslighting... anything else you want to do to convince me that you're a troll who doesn't belong here?

[–] sandbox 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You can say what you like, but we both know the truth. Have you ever interacted with a delusional person before? It’s quite difficult, because you can’t confirm their delusions, but also just straight up telling them that they’re delusional isn’t very effective - they kind of close up and it’s harder to get through to them. So you kind of have to talk around it a bit, without directly challenging them.

I feel like it’s pretty apparent that you hadn’t heard of consensus-based decision making prior to our conversation. You’ve probably got some hazy ideas on the subject, but only from understanding the words used to form the term and some ideas about how a jury comes to make its decision, but you don’t have a firm grasp on the subject.

I can provide plenty of evidence to back up my belief:

You continue to talk about consensus-based decision making as though it is necessarily about, or involves, voting. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works - the focus is on proposal making, discussion, and adapting proposals until there is something that everyone agrees with. There are forms of consensus-based decision making which, when incapable of finding a true consensus, have a fall-back mechanism akin to voting, but it is not necessarily part of the core concept. If you knew about the subject prior, you would already know that, because it is fundamental.
I have, since we started speaking, mentioned consensus-based decision making in 6 out of the 14 messages I sent prior to asking you to google consensus-based decision making, and you very clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding around what it was and how it would work - you mentioned that judges are elected in the US, for example — a pluralistic voting system, not a consensus-based one. If you understood the term prior, I would not have had to refer you to Google.
You linked me to the Wikipedia page about consensus-based decision making. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, a starting point for people looking to learn about a subject for the first time, you’re also not even reading my messages, which refers them to other sources to learn from. If you already knew about consensus based decision making, you would have used a better, more appropriate source, such as the Seeds for Change website or something from the Consensus Council.

Now, it could be that you somehow did actually know about the topic, and you’ve just acted as though you don’t for some other reason, that’s entirely possible, but I don’t believe it. But do you see how that’s different from me lying and “gaslighting” you? If I truly believe that you’re ignorant of something, then it’s neither lying nor manipulation for me to act as though you are ignorant of it.

It’s absolutely beggars belief that you would consider me a troll, but it’s reassuring in a way - you’re demonstrating that my arguments are persuasive enough that they’re beginning to threaten your ego, and you’re lashing out in self-defence. Your next step would be to block me or get me banned, to ensure that my words can no longer haunt you. You can do that, but hopefully my words will be a seed that can grow in your mind. Change is a long journey, and we often don’t realise when it has started.

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Cool, more lying and gaslighting. But no, you're clearly not a troll, just someone who thinks lying, gaslighting and now just plain old insults are appropriate around here. They are not.

And your silly prediction is wrong. I am not going to ban you for this despite the incivility rule violation. I am just going to stop talking to you.

But you have just earned yourself the eye of a moderator who will not tolerate your rule-breaking with anyone else. Including if I see any in your recent history.

[–] sandbox 1 points 3 months ago

If you were capable of arguing further, then you would - so I’m really glad to have gotten through to you, thank you for your time.

Just so you know, you can ban me all you want, I can just create any number of new accounts, I can change my IP address, I can even spin up a whole other instance if I really want to. I don’t mind if you want to give in to your ego, you don’t need to find another excuse - or let this message be the excuse. I’m just glad that my time spent with you has been worthwhile.

Like I said - rules, in our present society, are for oppressors.