this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2024

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Olympic Diversity (lemmy.world)

submitted 4 months ago by FlyingSquid to c/microblogmemes

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[–] TSG_Asmodeus 10 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Their internal policies attack everyone, including me, regardless of my skin colour

Okay.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones. Please don't try to apply one to the other, it's a bad take.

I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic, but it doesn't have to do with skin color or with racism. Albanians, Romanians, balcan people in general suffered a lot of discrimination (and to some extent still do) as there were huge migratory waves in the '90s, and they are all white, just to make an example.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I would say it partially has to do with race (in the sense of skin tone). Depending on where you are in Europe. In very "white" northern countries, just having brown skin can easily get you lumped in with all other people with brown skin, regardless of ethnicity or place of origin. Reactionaries will call you a filthy immigrant all the same, even if you're born here. But in southern Italy, the natives are often not easily distinguishable from middle easterners or northern Africa anyways, so discrimination is mostly of national origin, language, and overall cultural identity.

But both will discriminate against eastern Europeans.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think you do have a point, and I would say it also depends a lot. Even more, this shows how little it makes sense to talk about "in Europe" as if it's a uniform thing.

Immigration policies are completely different and many countries have also completely different histories. Take France for example and see how their colonial past made them paradoxically more multicultural than other countries, where black people are maybe at 1/2 generations max (with all the consequences).

I would say that now discrimination against Eastern Europe has toned down a lot, which is...about time.

[–] TSG_Asmodeus 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

this shows how little it makes sense to talk about “in Europe” as if it’s a uniform thing.

Sure is.

The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones.

I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic

This is what you've been responding to this entire time:

To anyone reading this, this is textbook red herring fallacy. He's changed it to 'xenophobia and racism are totally different' and then went mask-off with "In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sure is what...? Sure is a uniform thing (Europe)?

Also no, I have been responding against comments that specifically made a point about European policies being racist.

Also what mask? What the hell are you talking about, I am trying to explain to a stubborn american who can't accept the world being a little different from their own country that different countries have different issues.

[–] TSG_Asmodeus 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

specifically made a point about European policies being racist.

By saying they're xenophobic. Racism is xenophobic. It's a root word we use for people who're against people who don't look/sound/whatever like they do. Racism is a specific target of that, but is still xenophobic. Being an elevated grammar nazi doesn't mean it's somehow better. "We don't specifically hate black people, we hate non-white people." Like congrats, your racism-apologism remains.

I am trying to explain to a stubborn american

And I remain a stubborn Canadian.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

By saying they’re xenophobic. Racism is xenophobic.

Yes, but the kind of xenophobia which is embodied in immigration policies in EU is not based on race - hence, it's not racist. People are hated just fine for being poor and for simply wanting to come here from somewhere else. Whether they are "white" (assuming there is such thing, especially in Europe) or not the difference is not relevant in this context. Refugees were treated terribly when they were from Balcans in the same way as they are let die today in the Mediterranean.

Racism is a specific target of that, but is still xenophobic. Being an elevated grammar nazi doesn’t mean it’s somehow better. “We don’t specifically hate black people, we hate non-white people.” Like congrats, your racism-apologism remains.

This is wrong on so many levels:

First, logically speaking A being a subset of B means that B can also be Not A. This is the case, you said yourself, xenophobia is a generic term. Racism is inherently xenophobic, xenophobia is not inherently racist.
It's not about grammar, it's about the actual semantics.
It's not “We don’t specifically hate black people, we hate non-white people.”, it's “We don’t specifically hate black people, we hate everyone which is not us (including other white people).”. This is literally what I have been trying to say, which is what you initially compared to "all lives matter", which is a specific reactionary movement that wants to devalue the violence and systemic racism experienced by black people in US. The fact that you feel unable to make a deeper analysis because in your cultural context this is done specifically to dilute racism doesn't mean that the same applies to everyone. No, saying that European immigration policies are xenophobic is not meant to dilute the suffering of the refugees (whether they are from Syria, Afghanistan, African countries etc.), it's a critique to the European immigration system that applies even without the racist accusation. Again, I will repeat it, the fact that in your cultural context this is generally done in bad faith by people who want to devalue problems that black people suffer is something you have to deal with.

your racism-apologism remains.

Yes, acknowledging that different parts of the world have different problems, while still acknowledging them as problems is an apology for the problem.

And I remain a stubborn Canadian.

Well, let's assume I was referring to America as a continent in the same way as you refer to "all over the place in Europe" as "in Germany" ;)

[–] TSG_Asmodeus 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Albanians, Romanians, balcan people in general suffered a lot of discrimination (and to some extent still do) as there were huge migratory waves in the '90s, and they are all white

Are you doing a semantic argument about this, or...? Sure people from the Balkans can be 'white', but how the fuck does that mean there's no racism involved? Because sometimes rich white people also target white minorities? What the fuck is this take?

The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones.

What? What even is this argument? We're a global society, people move around constantly.

I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic, but it doesn’t have to do with skin color or with racism.

What are these takes, honestly? It's not racist, it's just about their... being not white? (Or being from a different land)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Are you doing a semantic argument

Yes, if you wish. The difference between xenophobia and racism. If there is no racial motivation and there are extensive demonstrations of discrimination against people of "same race" (you minimize with "sometimes", but this is not sometimes, balcan migrations were The Migrations until 20 years ago), then what's the point of calling it racism?

What? What even is this argument? We're a global society, people move around constantly.

And? This has literally NOTHING to do with what I said. In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different. There are different minorities, in different amount, with completely different societal issues, history etc. Reading all the world though the lens of american society just doesn't work.

It's not racist, it's just about their... being not white? (Or being from a different land)

If you don't get the difference between racism and xenophobia, consult a dictionary. They are two words with 2 different meanings. The general discrimination of "other" people has to do with protecting your wealth (or tradition, culture, etc.) and with classism.

[–] TSG_Asmodeus 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The movements are basically nonexistent. Have you read your own article? Have you read the part where in the 4 (out of 27?) countries studied there were completely different issues pushed and dynamics happening (look at Poland vs Italy)?

Also the article is from 2021, and mentions that the movements is at the beginning. Is the movement still active? Are the issues the same as the main BLM?

You really think that googling "blm in Europe" and posting the first (and only) article you find is a gotcha? Jfc..

[–] TSG_Asmodeus 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Also the article is from 2021, and mentions that the movements is at the beginning. Is the movement still active? Are the issues the same as the main BLM?

How is that relevant? The same fucking issue was protested all over the place. Hell, even my fellow punks are still at it.

Since June, the group say “racist scenes” on Sylt have increased attacks on refugees and asylum seekers after a clip of Germans chanting the Nazi slogan “Germany for the Germans – foreigners out” in a nightclub went viral.

The fight is the same, the location is the difference.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

How is that relevant? The same fucking issue was protested all over the place. Hell, even my fellow punks are still at it.

All over the place -> links article mentioning protests in Germany.

I really don't know how to be clearer than this:

Europe is made by many countries. EU is made by 27 of them alone.
No, it was not "the same fucking issue" being protested. Issues (including racism against) with refugees and systemic racism in US are different things.
The BLM movement is nonexistent in Europe. The fact that in 2020 - in response to a specific event - there have been protests in solidarity is not an argument against my point. Which is very simple: US and Europe have different problems in this area. In Europe a movement like BLM, which is fundamentally linked to police violence against black people didn't develop because that is not a major issue in Europe. I used this as an example to show how different the racial dynamics are different.

The fight is the same, the location is the difference.

There are commonalities, but it's very different. You are only taking Germany, where the battles are different from France, where they are different from Italy, and where in general these have to do with immigration and handling of refugees. In US a lot has to do with systemic racism within the society. They are two different things. Of course there are also racist people in Europe, no shit. The point is that racism is not institutionalized in the same way as it is in US. Since the conversation initially was about immigration policies, not random people, then this matters a lot.