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The US is thinking about letting Ukraine use its weapons to strike Russia, even if it enrages Putin: report
(www.businessinsider.com)
this post was submitted on 23 May 2024
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Why are we less concerned about provoking Putin than we are about provoking Netanyahu?
Well yeah, only half our politicians work for Putin, but 100% work for Netanyahu.
Putin is already irritated at us and there's no advantage to preventing further irritation short of actually engaging in direct combat with NATO forces, and a general principle of not letting others control your escalation (We want to control when US weapons are used against Russia because it impacts our diplomatic stance, even if Ukraine is the one firing them).
There is advantage to us for Ukraine winning, particularly if it's with our weapons and support. It reassures our allies, it drives interest in closer alliances with us, and generally reinforces the "aligning with the US brings trade, wealth, safety and protection" message we like to use to spread influence. See also: Finland and Sweden.
Israel on the other hand is a historical ally in a region of significance and contested influence.
Israel's genocidal actions against the Palestinians is unacceptable. Full stop.
From a political standpoint, the actions Hamas took that precipitated the current military campaign make it difficult to condemn the response without undermining the message that US allies get US support when they're attacked. It's why all the wording and messaging gets so verbose: how do you say "of course you can defend yourself and we'll help" while also saying "maybe not the big guns, and stop with the civilian killings".
If the region weren't contested, weren't important, we had significantly moreallies in the area, and it wasn't important for domestic political reasons, it would be a different story.
Thank you for providing some nuance. Ugh, this situation is so complicated. I do wonder, however, how much it's worth that we have such strong values surrounding the way we support our allies if we are willing to countenance the evil things they do and still call them allies.
I'm unfortunately not sure how much of it's "values" and how much is "utility".
People have values, nations don't. Nations only exemplify their national values because the citizens will be outraged if they're breached too far. Otherwise a nations foreign policy is better looked at through a lens of detached utilitarianism.
Usually our value of "supporting our friends" and the self image of being the hero (I think WW2 was America's highschool football) lines up nicely with the utility it provides.
We get a lot of advantages out of our allies, not least of which is fat piles of sweet, sweet trade goods. We would never precondition military training exercises, intelligence sharing or sensitive service export regulation exemptions on getting a favorable trade deal on mangoes, but we do tend to reserve those things for our close allies, and trade agreements are a very efficient way to develop those bonds.
Waterway access lets us send our navy everywhere which massively reduces piracy, to the benefit of all, but to our benefit the most, as the leading consumer of oceanic transport goods.
A military base will get you very strong support, and furthers our security interests of global force projection.
Israel is very useful to us. The give us a naval port in the Mediterranean, military staging areas, and a regional toehold that would otherwise be significantly weaker. We also, again, get a lot of trade value from their medical supplies and electronics, and we get to sell them a lot of services.
Combined with the previously mentioned points about signaling strong resolve and unwavering support if you've earned it, it would be very costly for us to abandon Israel.
It's why our politicians with constituents who care about human rights are trying very hard to walk the tightrope of supporting Israel against Hamas while opposing killing civilians. (The messaging is not going well).
The Palestinians, unfortunately, do not possess strategic value. Their "value" comes from internal political pressure to not allow or support evil, which is tempered by the opposing political view being to make the evil worse, which explains a relatively subdued response.
With goods, sales, power, influence and PR worth tens of billions one one side, and internal political pressure towards an ethical stance that might endanger some fraction of that value on the other, it's a question of how much value we stand to loose by listening to that pressure, and exactly how strong that pressure is.
Ding ding ding on all points but - it’s not ‘the end of history’ anymore, definitely not after 9/11 and GWOT.
There are headwinds coming for US and western leadership, and the unlimited ‘bear hug’ support for ~~Bibi~~ Israel has America standing alone at the UN, a global hypocrite in the “rules based international order” whilst pointing the finger at Russia and Ukraine, or China and the ~~11~~ ~~10~~ 9 dash line/Taiwan/Senkaku Islands/etc…
The global south is turning against western leadership; South Africa’s dogged case at the ICC, the French getting ejected from their peacekeeping missions in multiple former colonies, India is sending assassins to run hits on US and Canadian soil, OPEC expansion, that nut in Argentina… There’s growing rejection of the Pax Americana and/or Bretton Woods, and not in same bipolar competition like in the Cold War
Oh, totally. Don't disagree with anything you said. 😊
To be clear, I was just trying to illustrate "how nations choose to act" and a bit of the context of "why Ukraine and not Palestine?".
Location and advertising reliability as an ally are just the easiest to convey, but there are of course so many different things that go into everything a nation as big as the US does.
The state department has tens of thousands of workers, before you even get to the "boring" parts of what the CIA does to get them the data (analyzing public shipping records mostly) they need to make those policies and agreements. Any attempt to summarize the considerations of those people will have to cut some content.
Utility is when an action or tool moves you closer to what you value.
They aren’t opposites; they’re two components of the same mechanism.
"values" in this context was being used in the ethical or cultural sense not the economic sense.
"Equality" and "justice" are American Values, and "clear shipping routes" are something with utility. "Ideals" would have also worked for "American values".
Lemmy users don't understand nuance. "Israel bad" is all they understand.
That's not what I was saying at all. I was legitimately asking the question. I hadn't considered the foreign policy implications of Israel being an ally.
It's good that you are willing to acknowledge that. A lot of people on here truly reject the concept that the situation is more complicated than "stop supporting Israel". People are quick to spout that without thinking about the knock-on effects.
There are even people on here who are outright in support of Hamas, an oppressive Islamist group that has a far worse human rights record than Israel.