jumperalex

If that's the role-play you need from your partner and she agrees to it and you reciprocate; then sure. But it isn't society's, or your co-workers', job to do that.

Not who your responding too ...

I totally agree with your final thesis, it bothers me a lot too.

However, there's some nits I could pick with your construct of what drives men's (or women's) sense of self-worth as being part of the "bell curve". Meaning, that feeling of self-worth is itself derived from the culture they grow up in (read: imposed) and not some inherent trait that has been statistically examined and can be plotted on a bell curve (read: implicit).

I'd assert that the bell curves overlap 1 for 1 and that all "traits" being discussed are traits of a good person without respect to gender. Note: I'm not talking about physical traits, I'm just talking about traits of the mind and action. Emotional strength, women can and do have that. Strength of character, courage, leadership, independence, compassion, empathy, protectiveness, selflessness, charity, etc, these are all traits both genders can and ideally should objectively possess regardless if they've grown up being told otherwise. Even how those traits are made manifest are influenced by the society around them.

You didn't say it, but "Taking care of family" is the most laughable one I think I ever hear. Like, seriously? Women don't take care of their family? Aren't protective of their family? The only aspect of those that has any whiff of validity of being "masculine" is when it's associated with physical strength. But as a "trait", men have nothing on women for the societal expectations, and possibly the genetic "urge", to take care of their family. So I always just get a chuckle when someone lists taking care of family as something that defines being a man.

Yeah that's pretty much my thought as well. I don't seem to ever concern myself with "feeling" like a man, or even acting like one. I just act like who I am, and mostly concern myself with just trying to be a better human and I'm a long work in progress on that. But none of it is tied to some conscious sense of masculinity. I know the culture I was raised in certainly has an unconscious influence, but I can only effect those as I am made aware of them. For sure some of my worst traits are associated with maleness, but I don't consider them what makes me feel like a man when they come out, and for sure make me feel like an asshole. And we men and women both have assholes ;-)

~~man up boss up~~ emotional-fortitude up, morer gender neutral.

Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society.

I'm not who you're replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different? Maturity isn't gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn't gendered; heck you acknowledge that when you used the word "adult", it's right there in the language you used.

I'm not taking exception to thousands of years of history, because so many of the traits would still apply to both genders and aren't about equality. Keep in mind that's different than discussing gender roles which certainly have relevant history. But "taking care of your family" is a trait and women we expected to do that to. Just with different tasks. Same with being honest / honorable and just about any trait was practically speaking, non-gendered, but with gendered expressions of those traits.

I'd also say that if we don't try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don't immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change. The best day to have questioned a definition of masculinity that isn't actually gender specific was thousands of years ago, the 2nd best day is today.

I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn't lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I'm also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren't actually gendered if dissected.

Being a stubborn old fool isn't just a "man" trait 😜

But I suppose, being statistically more risk tolerant is a sign of being a man. Not sure if that nature, nurture, or both I'm not going to speculate. But we are where we are however we got here.

I for one, am amazed I've made it this many trips around the sun.

To all the people who’ve bought houses I lived in, I’m sorry for all of the " what was that idiot thinking" moments I’ve caused you. Ha

Hmm from what you said it's more like, "Yup, I can see what shit the last guy had to fix. Thanks friend I'll never meet."

That holds true from all genders to all genders, it isn't a uniquely "man" thing.

No. That's just what makes a good person. Pretty much the same with every other "Being a man means yadda yadda yadda" I've ever heard so far. Every time, what follows are a list of qualities that make a good person/human, and are neither exclusive to men, nor counterfactual for women. To think otherwise would be to imply that women don't/can't/shouldn't possess those qualities (I'm not saying you thought otherwise Hadriscus; I'm just taking my thought to the next logical step).

I don't have a satisfying answer for what "makes a man" because I reject the entire concept that there is any list of qualities of what makes a [gender]; or that one is even needed. The closest could be a pair of testicles (per Laser's reply), but then we'd enter into a trans debate and frankly I support trans-rights.

Or to really sum it all up, the entire debate is just a bunch of gatekeeping and social identity politics ("man" and "woman" both) that really is just stupid and counterproductive to us all getting along.

It's possible for two things to be true at the same time. A misandrist can say something that's not misandry. And OP is not misandry.

at least 35 syllables long and you'll forget what your reading halfway through the word.

I have accepted that two things can be trust at once: I can be sad for her and amused at the leopard eating her face. I have no problem containing both of those emotions at the same time without hating myself one ounce.

jumper