ciferecaNinjo

joined 1 year ago
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[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

I’m uncertain. The EU’s words 3 weeks ago were:

“Now, with the #WiFi4EU app, enjoy free, high-speed WiFi in public spaces across Europe.”

That seems to imply that it is. A few replies seem to suggest opposition to a smartphone app requirement:

https://freesoftwareextremist.com/objects/0f42d401-7c57-4f78-a73c-c42278ffb0ed https://piaille.fr/@aaribaud/113260758404320106 https://sns.neonka.info/@nk/113261087148349618 https://westergaard.social/objects/8d4873c1-e674-4403-9f0a-b0adb5dd4246

But this post comes from someone who apparently believes the app is purely for finding the hotspots, not using them:

https://wetdry.world/@cyrus/113264605839060934

If you find something solid let me know. I’ll correct the post if needed. The branch started by @aaribaud seems to have the most insight, implying that the EU is distrusting WPA and using an app to do TLS.

(update) I think you are right. I just heard from someone saying it’s a regular hotspot with captive portal. Still not good but not as bad as an app mandate (like we see with eduroam).

 

I have not been able to track down the Belgian open data law¹ but it seems in principle blocking both Tor users and archive.org from access to the address book of Chamber of Representatives would not be in line with the spirit of open data. They may not have the IT competency to serve Tor users but to treat archive.org like a malicious robot is to underachieve.

¹ I can only find an old archive of the goals of the open data policy (in French), but not the law:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160416034829/http://www.digitalbelgium.be/sites/default/files/content/FR_strategisch_dossier.pdf

The original link was from https://openknowledge.be/ which seems to be a stale website and an inactive project. It feels like open data got started in Belgium but then the ball was dropped.

 

(original post)

To reach the Belgian datasets of open data from Tor you must go through archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/20241003145143/https://data.gov.be

And because the website is interactive and also not completely archived, I ultimately could not even browse through to see what data there is beyond the first page of databases. Thus not entirely “open”.

But the Brussels datasets are open to all.

I could not find the data I was looking for. That is, I wanted to know how many complaints are sent to the various different SPF regulators as well as ombuds people -- and very specifically how many complaints are ignored. Some offices produce annual reports but I have never seen an annual report that exposes the count of ignored complaints.

Anyway, the question I have is what section of legal code covers open data in Belgium?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

But you don't have a human right to have it converted into cash at your leisure (and the bank's effort) whenever you please.

When a consumer opts to close their account, the banking relationship can only be ended when the balance is zero (when neither party owes the other). You seem to be saying the UDHR does not entitle people to end the banking relationship at a time of their choosing, correct? In which case the banking relationship continues until the service fees eat away at the remaining balance, against the will of the customer. This is just another way to separate someone from their property.

Your argument is like buying gold for $20 and then complaining about human rights violations if the seller doesn't buy it back for $20 whenever you wish.

Banking customers who open an account in the national currency have a reasonable expectation that the value of their account remain pinned to the value of the national currency. Exchanging that for a precious metal and having an expectation that value not decline would be absurd and I do not see how this analogy makes any sense.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago

I’m with you there.

But to be clear, the website banking web access is also an app. I don’t think any banking websites function with static HTML anymore -- always JavaScript required. So forced execution of non-free software had already taken hold in banking. But now it’s much worse because phone apps are more exclusive, more intrusive, and more imposing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I’ve not tested a banking app on a rooted phone but what I care about is escaping the ecocidal practice of designed obsolescence whereby people are needlessly forced to buy more new hardware to update their software. So I tried running a banking app on an Android emulator and it refused to run.

So there are 2 show-stoppers for banking apps for me:

  • forced patronage of Google -- no escape from Playstore (not sure if I’m okay with the Huawei store as an alternative)
  • ecocidal designed obsolescence -- emulators rejected

If a bank were competent enough to eliminate those two factors, I would also likely demand the app be open source.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

My question was more about denominations. I do not know if cashback services allow odd amounts. Most people ask for €20.

But regarding limits, different stores have different limits. Generous stores will let you pull out as much as €150, but often the limit is €20.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Ah, we call that “cashback” when you use a grocery or convenient store cash register like an ATM. I did not get the impression you could ask for any arbitrary amount, but if so then that would solve that problem (case 1).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Oh, actually I’m not sure why I had €20 in mind. Indeed some ATMs can dispense €10. But I don’t think I’ve seen one dispense €5. Some people will miss €9.99 more than others. But regardless, it’s embarrassing that banks don’t have the competency to enable customers to cash out. They have to do a bit of a dance and a hack to get all their money out of the bank.

Can't you exchange the money in a normal store? That at least used to be possible here.

Not sure what you mean.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

If you see a value limit enshrined in the UDHR, feel free to quote it here.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

ATMs are a particular kind of cash machine, but cash machines are not necessarily ATM machines. The machine I describe at the grocery store enables customers to pay for their groceries without the cashier having to touch the bank notes. The customer can feed a €50 banknote in the machine, and get back change. The grocery machine handles any denomination. But it’s not an ATM (short for Automatic [bank] Teller Machine).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

The bank isn't depriving you of your property, you agreed to convert your cash into a legally binding right to access cash in the future

It’s not one or the other. It’s both at the same time. Consumers are deprived of their property as a consequence of that agreement. The bank in case 1 currently says: to get your €19.99 back, either open another bank account or fuck off (in so many words).

From there, it comes down to whether you can sign away your human rights.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This depends on the country.

In the US: legal tender has different charactoristics depending on whether it is point of sale (PoS) or debt. W.r.t PoS, legal tender ensures the seller can accept it if they want, but have the option. W.r.t debts, legal tender entitles debtors to be able to use it for payment.

In Belgium: there is no distinction between PoS and debts. It’s as CanadaPlus says.. Legal tender must be accepted either way. But there are some exceptions: if the seller and buyer are not in the same physical place at the same time, there is no obligation to accept cash. Sellers/creditors can also reject banknotes that are disproportionate to the transaction amount. The bizarre thing about Belgium is there are various circumstances where a debtor only has cash but a creditor can refuse it, e.g. if they have no physical presence. In practice it’s even worse because some business simply break the law by refusing cash, and it’s not enforced.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Indeed, a banker’s draft almost always involves a fee. Though it’s possible that some high value accounts in places like the US would come with some perks like a few gratis banker’s drafts per year. Certainly it’s not the norm anywhere that I am aware of.

And from there, cashing the banker’s draft is a problem. @[email protected] is apparently thinking in terms of the U.S. case where there are (predatory) high-fee “checks cashed” shops all over, where at least you can get a check cashed. I think a European with a cheque is on shaky territory as it is -- unlikely to get a cheque of any kind, and also unlikely to deposit one, and in if a European has no bank account it’s likely impossible for them to spend a cheque.

 

case 1: account closure

Cashless banks have no vault and no cash services apart from the ATMs. ATMs in Europe never handle denominations smaller than €20. This means that even when you are closing an account at a cashless bank, the most you can pull out is a multiple of €20 from your balance. The bank expects you to open an account somewhere else first and transfer the remainder to the other account. This is to keep people trapped in the banking system.

It seems to violate article 17 ¶2:

  1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
  2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

This is not exactly up there with genocide and torture. It’s perhaps the smallest human rights infraction I can think of. But nonetheless, banks should be structured to comply with human rights no matter how trivial, no? It seems like even a cashless bank should (in effect) be required to keep some petty cash on-hand for account closures.

case 2: withdrawal limits

The same question applies for bigger cases. E.g. a bank (cashless or not) may have a daily withdrawal limit; weekly, and monthly too. Perhaps it is fair enough to have a fee or penalty for exceeding their limits, but if I understand correctly the bank has a human rights obligation to allow you to withdraw all your money. At the moment banks with limits simply refuse to execute withrawals that exceed their limits.

case 3: card refusal

ATMs and shops refuse people access to their money for countless arbitrary reasons.

  • When a customer’s ID card copy on the bank’s files expires, some banks do not bother to inform the customer or request an updated copy. They just freeze the account. When money is denied, the customer magically presents themselves to the bank to find out why. Cutting off access to funds is the bank’s way of communicating.
  • ATMs reject cards for undisclosed reasons. Sometimes a faulty AI bot falsely triggers and claims a transaction looks fraudulent. Sometimes ATMs are discriminating against people based on their origin (locally issued cards get a higher limit than foreign ones, but the ATM does not tell the customer what the limit is or why their transaction is denied).
 

The closed-source app is exclusively available in these places:

  • Google Playstore
  • Apple store
  • Huawei store

The app will only run on quite recent phones. So anyone who does not keep their OS up to date (which implies periodically buying new hardware for the shitshow platforms people much choose between) are locked out of their account. Also:

  • No walk-in service
  • Over the counter service requires appointment and a fee for many staff-assisted operations
  • No paper statements. No phone → no statements.

The app requires SMS 2fa, so non-phone or landphone users: don’t even think about trying to use an android emulator.

If you want to close your account to escape this shitshow, you have 2 options:

  • In the app use the account closure feature, OR
  • Send a shit load of sensitive information (ID/passport, utility bill, bank account numbers to close, account numbers of your new external account to transfer the money to, etc) via Google (gmail) from an IP address that Google accepts.

(edit) Worth mentioning an aspect of these cashless banks that should be embarrassing for them: when you close an account, they have no cash so they cannot pay you your balance. You can pull money from an ATM but obviously only in denominations of paper banknotes. So how do you get the rest out? They expect you to open an account elsewhere and transfer it. How silly is that? Maybe you don’t want another account, or maybe you’re moving to a completely different part of the world and the transfer cost will exceed what remains.

You can hack around this various ways, like dining out and paying an exact amount by card and the rest by cash. But really, banks should be embarrassed they cannot give you cash. They shouldn’t need a vault just to secure €20 or so in change.

 

The linked “magazine” (community) is where Twitter & FB users can converge with non-Twitter & non-FB users to have their messages to their gov reps relayed. This is a hack to circumvent digital exclusion.

 

The linked “magazine” (community) is where Twitter & FB users can converge with non-Twitter & non-FB users to have their messages to their gov reps relayed. This is a hack to circumvent digital exclusion.

 

There is an art competition for original CC-licensed art created using FOSS. Some of you might want to submit your work to try to win a prize (there are 3 prizes).

 

The EU has implemented a free public wi-fi infrastructure and is pitching this service to various public buildings, including public libraries. This “Wifi4EU” project is limited to people with smartphones, and only those that are running iOS or Android OS. The app needed to connect to the network is closed-source and exclusively available in the walled gardens of Google and Apple. The network is inaccessible without the special app.

AFAICT, these are the excluded demographics of people:

  • people with laptops
  • people who do not have or carry a smartphone
  • people with old non-updatable smartphones (all iOS & AOS devices are designed for obsolescence)
  • people with cheap Chinese phones that exclude Google Playstore (which requires licensing with Google that some vendors do not subscribe to)
  • people with deGoogled phones
  • people with no Google account (i.e. those without the mobile phone number needed to register with Google)
  • people who refuse to install and execute non-free closed-source software, and those on FOSS platforms that do not support such software

My concern is that when a public library decides to deploy Wifi4EU, they will discontinue their current wi-fi service, which does not require a special app and which is generally open to more demographics of people. Note that it’s a bit of a shit-show already because some current library wi-fi services already exclude people who cannot overcome the shitty captive portal + SMS verification design. Wifi4EU is even more exclusive.

 

More political than artistic, and in fact has a bit of a ransom letter feel to it. But a college nonetheless.

If someone wants to make a more artistic version, I can provide the raw material (an SVG file that was created with Inkscape).

 

What’s going to happen in the EU is public spaces like libraries which already have wi-fi service are going unplug their wi-fi service and take this free wifi4eu option. Then only people who can get the special Google/Apple-only app will have wi-fi access.

So while the project falsely claims to favor digital inclusion, they will actually be making existing networks more exclusive.

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