Neptium

You say that Malaysia and Singapore share similar cultures, and I agree.

You say that because of this similarity, Malaysia should share the same "progress" of Singapore.

I say that it can't and it hasn't because they are not the same. They have different material conditions.

But then you come back and say

I’m saying that is Singapore can do it, Malaysia should be able to do it within a comparable period of time.

I don't know how to continue. It seems like we are talking past eachother.

If let’s say you were living in a country where Islam was a minority and burning the Quran was legal, wouldn’t you want to have a conversation started and hope that there was some progress for your situation as well? What would you think if others in that country were to say that Türkiye protesting on your behalf would be comparable to supporting jihadist and that should not be allowed?

The reaction against the unprovoked burning of the Quran is objectively correct because Islam is globally oppressed, through wars of destabilization and occupation in West Asia, through funding of Wahhabist and Salafist groups, through neocolonial control of the Persian Gulf states, through Orientalism and Racism. So when these oppressed countries reject this imposition of Western cultural values - it is only reactionary if you are on the side of the Imperialists.

The "conversation" that happens is just further policing of LGBT communities here in Malaysia - what "progress" is that?

When the government introduces guidelines for performers, which include not talking about sensitive topics as well as behaving appropriately, and it was violated by foreigners, shouldn't the government act? What would it look like if they don't act?

It would delegitimize their rule causing further destabilization, and wreck our economy. What use would that brief conversation on LGBT rights be for people in my country, geopolitically and materially? We don't need the colonizers and the imperialists themselves protesting on "our behalf" because it causes more problems than solutions.

Certainly, there is a dialectic with the nationalism-internationalism question, but this is outside the scope of this response, which is long enough as it is.

Also, Singapore's "progress" is encumbered with problems too. Pink Dot SG, the foremost NGO advocating for LGBT rights in Singapore, had large Amerikan corporate sponsors like Facebook, Google and Apple until the government stopped it. We must question why these NGOs can easily associate themselves with Western Capital without an ounce of reflection. There are no easy answers.

Culturally, Malaysia and Singapore are sister countries, in historical times, they were only recently separated (not even 100 years yet). Not comparable with Hong Kong because Malaysia and Singapore where not given to another country that had different cultural values. They both became independent on their own. If Singapore can talk and make progress for the LGBT community, so could Malaysia.

Singapore is different from Malaysia, precisely because they were controlled differently. Singapore was part of the Straits Settlements, same as Penang, Melaka and Dinding. The strait settlements were crown colonies, versus the indirect rule found in the Federated and Unfederated Malay States.

Are we to ignore that the original reason for Singapore's expulsion was because of it's Chinese-majority that would have counterracted the power given to the Malay sultans?

progress for the LGBT community

Again - that word is used. "Progress"? Gender and sexual diversity was more progressive in 1600s Southeast Asia than 1900s Europe. What is "progress"?

Singapore can afford to be much more generous in terms of civil rights because of it's role as a tax haven for ASEAN economies. The material conditions could be anything but different.

Singapore can "progress" on civil rights while supporting imperialism in other SEA states. Until this contradiction is removed, LGBT people can't "progress" nor can they achieve liberation.

Also you seem to think that I believe that it's culturally impossible for Malays to accept LGBT people. That isn't my point. My point is that for acceptance to occur it means 0 meddling from the Global North of Global South affairs.

Until the contradictions within Malaysian society is resolved and managed, LGBT acceptance will never be reality with Imperialism being the primary contradiction.

Malays live in Singapore, same race as the Malays that live in Malaysia different citizenship only.

I agree, up to a certain point, although I would avoid using the word "race" for it's tainted colonial history. Malaysia-Singapore has never moved past their idiotic use of the word "race" precisely because they never fully decolonized.

Also this suggests that there aren't Singaporeans with Malaysian citizenship - which isn't the case. As we both probably know, Singaporean citizens are given til 22 to renounce any foreign citizenship.

Singapore’s Mufti seems to be more understanding of the situation. Why can’t Malaysia try a more sensible approach?

Sensible to whom? Western observers? Or the people that live here?

Singapore and Malaysia has a shared history for millenia, and already got seperated due to colonization. I agree with that. However, because of that, the situation is a bit more complicated and the material conditions between the 2 countries can't ever be more different.

It's like arguing that Taiwan Province or Hong Kong has LGBT rights so why can't mainland China have it.

The questions we must ask: is there majority will for further LGBT protection and "rights"? Is this event where a White Guy trashes the government and then subsequently leaves for his next tour beneficial for LGBT people on the ground? What are the local and international conditions in which this "outrage" took place?

Why should we be mad at a government in which we already knows is forced to do this, which everyone here knows is homophobic, when this was clearly initiated by those outside the country that can't even respect our normal cultural practices, and then tries to shoehorn a politically sensitive issue like homosexuality?

Is this for the benefit of our people? Or is it a very self-evident case of liberal virtue signalling?

I thought I replied to this but I didn't

I only included LG in the title because the event only included them, although it was mb that I forgot to include the B.

Later on I did use LGBT but it was for convenience, in an ideal world there would have been alternative terminology for LGBT people.

Gender and sexual minority is one of them but I personally don't like it.

And why I left out transgender people isn't some transphobic plot - it's because transgender people is treated differently in Islamic societies. They are their own special case and I don't necessarily see why we should force the umbrella "LGBT" onto Third World constructs that don't perfectly map onto it.

To those downvoting, take a look at this thread. Then come back here and tell me if you have objections to the analysis.

Thread is copy-pasted down below.

Let me teach you Marxist 101 wrt this whole Matty Healy thing. The force that drives social change is primarily the internal contradictions of a society, which of course reacts to external influences. The primary contradiction internationally is imperialism at the moment. (1/9)

In a postcolonial world, formerly colonised nations are in the process of healing from colonial trauma. A component of decolonisation is the reclamation of one’s own culture as this affirms and empowers the identity of the colonised. (2/9)

But the colonialists themselves were responsible for epistemicide and cultural genocide. They imposed their norms, including the gender binary which is rooted in capitalism, onto our ancestors who had their own differing attitudes toward gender and sexual diversity. (3/9)

Anti-queer attitudes (in the capitalist sense) among Malays is learned. The knowledge of their previous attitude is repressed. This is not to say that their attitudes were perfect but change happens and the Malays would’ve made their own progress on this issue. (4/9)

The West has a track record of continuing the White Man’s burden, screaming human rights as an excuse to criticise our practice and lecture us on what to do. They’ve also weaponised social issues to incite colour revolutions in parts of the Third World. (5/9)

Matty Healy’s act of “protest” against our government is one that will backfire against us. A white Brit kissing a man to challenge the authority of Malaysia is a microattack on our right to decide for ourselves the values we follow. (6/9)

He also presents the act of two men kissing as a Western imposition onto our people. This adds ammo for a people who are ignorant of their ancestors’ nuanced attitude towards this stuff to label the LGBT people as a threat to national sovereignty. (7/9)

This is why what he did was reactionary. It was a reaction and it will incite reactions that inhibit the progress of our revolutionary efforts. It sabotages our attempt to improve the conditions of gender and sexual diverse people in Malaysia. (8/9)

The government will point to this and can use it as an excuse to enact further restrictions on the practice of the local LGBT community. We will have to face the reaction of the government which they see as necessary to maintain the status quo. So, fuck Matty Healy. (9/9)

I just mean that colonialism and imperialism still exists. It wasn’t abolished overnight after gaining independence, so the basis for the deprivation of a majority of muslims still exists. We can’t even industrialise let alone “progress” (in the least liberal sense of the term).

In other words the contradiction still exists, and can only be negated/resolved by anti-imperialist class struggle.

Only a few countries have achieved complete decolonisation (of both society and economy) and has the “cultural capacity” to get rid of colonial ideas, like the orientalism you mention.

They erase the Sunnah!

I agree completely!

What was Mao's famous dictum?

From the masses, to the masses.

Without consent from the people, it will fall apart.

Non-hetero sexual relations and diverse gender expressions is not contradictory to Islamic society either but I don't see how succumbing to the "LGBTQ+" label will do anything.

To quote the article in the OP:

Very numerous forms of social-sexual relations were corrupted by the colonial fact. The indigènes of the world are fighting to reconstruct them and to rebuild the link to the fragments of social history and memories at risk of disappearing, not without certain ambiguities and not without being interlaced with the white heterosexual model.8

And I will especially reject any attempt at those that paint a broad brush at my culture and my family for being reactionary, when Colonialism and Imperialism itself was not negated overnight.

The Anglo-Saxon world, with all due respect to the British people, has a very good idea of how to hammer in liberal ideology into the heads of the people. They are exceedingly good at it.

No lies detected whatsoever.

I think if it’s cordoned off better (maybe labelled as daily quote or smt else to make it clear) in addition to the suggestions made in the other thread, it should be re-enabled.

I don’t particularly mind the very online jokes but in general I think the culture here is a slightly more serious than another random posting board, so keeping it to the minimum, with more “basic” jokes about would be less jarring.

China, ASEAN reaffirm commitment to advance comprehensive strategic partnership

The ASEAN parties thanked China for supporting ASEAN centrality and community building. They appreciated China for taking the lead in expressing willingness to sign the Protocol to the Treaty on the Southeast Asia Nuclear-Weapon-Free Zone.

In addition, they looked forward to seeing the ASEAN-China comprehensive strategic partnership advance to a new level and make new achievements.

The meeting adopted a joint statement on the 20th anniversary of China's accession to the TAC and a guideline document for expediting the conclusion of the Code of Conduct in the South China Sea.

I wonder if any North Atlantic commentators even knows anything about ASEAN centrality, ZOPFAN, or tanah air diplomacy that guides Nusantara sea policies.

You got me there.

I guess British food is cancelled 😔

It’s such a online circlejerk tbh.

I can appreciate a Full English and a lot of the baked foods are quite good.

Also Fish and Chips is a working class icon and anyone that says otherwise needs mandatory re-education.