A book you might find helpful is English Grammar for Students of Spanish. I can't remember which edition I got. I'll check my shelf when I'm home. It answers questions like yours with reference to English grammar. It's kind of a reverse Spanish grammar. It is about Spanish grammar, though. I'll try to find the relevant answer, too, when I find the book.
this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2023
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Thank you, that would be incredibly helpful. Obviously the goal is to think in Spanish rather than trying to translate each word to English or vice versa, but I seem to need to understand the literal translation first. As soon as I was told “in Spanish you say you have cold, not feel cold” I understood, but it’s like I need to be told what the rule is before “yo tengo frío” feels normal for me.
I wouldn't worry too much about thinking in Spanish for now. Don't do what I did, persuaded by the 'no translating' crowd. I refused to look up words because I was just supposed to magically understand the Spanish in context. I wasted so much time. Don't get me wrong, there's a place for that. But it's okay to look up words. And grammar.
The more vocab and grammar you know, the more comprehensible you will find Spanish and the more you can do extensive reading and listening effectively.
When you do translate, though, try to do it literally from the Spanish. I.e. don't try to translate it into a grammatically correct English version of the same thing. E.g. as you said, don't translate 'tengo frío' as 'I'm cold' or 'i feel cold' but as 'i have cold'. This will help you to get your head into Spanish grammar and thus help you to think in Spanish.
There's no need to force 'thinking in Spanish' (it sounds like you're not trying to). There are some techniques you can use to help do so. But otherwise it comes naturally. If you keep going you will reach a point when the meaning clicks. Some call it an epiphany moment.
It's really bizarre. It's like you're floating in the back of your head watching the middle of your head think, in English, 'I can see the front of my head reading in Spanish and understanding it', but you're also fully in the front of your head, imagining a world that is crisp and clear because you are actually understanding the Spanish novel that you're reading. It doesn't last long so savour it. I'd learn another language just to feel it again for that hour-or-so.
If you read on the Kindle app, you can change the dictionary settings and tap on a word or even a phrase for a translation. Some translations are a bit iffy. But if you intensively read a novel or two like this, you'll progress quite quickly and by the end you won't have to look up nearly as many words as you did at the beginning. In the right novel, you'll see indirect and direct object pronouns used so many times that you'll get a natural feel for them (I think these are the concepts you're looking for, btw). I like to read about a grammar point and then look for it 'in the wild' like this.
I checked the book. That's the right title. I've got the fourth edition. It was cheap second hand on eBay. I recommend it. Author is Emily Spinelli. In my copy, the info you're after is in chapter 38.
I can't really top what WaterBowlSlime said, but I'll give you some of what the book says so you see what I mean when I say it's helpful (I'm not going to be exhaustive, though).
Pronouns used as direct and indirect objects are called object pronouns.
Paul saw her. Paul saw whom? Answer: Her. Her is the object of the verb saw. …
In English Most object pronouns are different from subject pronouns, but the same pronouns are used as direct objects and indirect objects.
Subject pronouns are: I, you, he, she, it, we, you, they.
Object pronouns are: me, you, him, her, it, us, you, them.
For example:
She saw me.
'Me' is the direct object and is a pronoun = direct object pronoun.
But 'me' can also be an indirect object pronoun. For example:
He lent me the car.
'Me' is the indirect object and is a pronoun = indirect object pronoun.
The chapter then explains what is different and similar about Spanish (in)direct object pronouns.
When 'you' would be 'tú' (informal singular) or 'vosotros' (informal plural), the direct object pronoun to use is 'te' (for tú) or 'os' (for 'vosotros). 'Me' stays as 'me'. 'Him' becomes 'lo' (not él). 'Her' becomes 'la' (not ella). 'Us' becomes 'nos' (not nosotros/as). Examples:
John sees me. Juan me ve.
John sees you. Juan te ve (informal, singular [tú form]). Or: Juan os ve (informal, plural [vosotros form]).
Do you seen John? Yes, I see him. ¿Ves a Juan? Sí, lo veo.
Do you see Mary? Yes, I see her. ¿Ves a Mary? Sí, la veo.
John sees us. Juan nos ve.
The direct object pronoun is slightly different for 'it', 'them' (and these change by gender), and for 'you' (when 'you' is polite and singular or plural). So 'it' and 'you' (formal singluar, 'usted') becomes either 'lo' (masculine) or 'la' (feminine). So 'them' and 'you' (formal plural, 'ustedes') becomes either 'los' (masculine) or 'las' (feminine). The gender, here, depends on the noun that they are replacing (called the 'antecedent'. So e.g. the antecedent for 'las' could be 'las chicas' ('the girls'). Examples for 'it'/'them':
Do you see the book? Yes, I see it. ¿Ves el Libro? Sí, lo veo.
Do you see the table? Yes, I see it. ¿Ves la mesa? Sí, la veo.
Do you see the cars? Yes, I see them. ¿Ves los coches? Sí, los veo.
Do you see the girls? Yes, I see them. ¿Ves las chicas? Sí, las veo.
Examples for 'you' when 'usted' or 'ustedes' would be needed:
Whom does John see? He sees you (polite, speaking to a singular male). ¿A quién ve Juan? Juan lo ve.
Whom does John see? He sees you (polite, speaking to a singular female). ¿A quién ve Juan? Juan la ve.
Whom does John see? He sees you (polite, speaking to a male group or mixed group). ¿A quién ve Juan? Juan los ve.
Whom does John see? He sees you (polite, speaking to a female group). ¿A quién ve Juan? Juan las ve.
You may notice that the book separates 'him' and 'her' from 'it', 'you', 'them', even though they seem to have the same pattern ('lo'/'la'). Don't ask. I have no idea why. I'd have kept them together, but maybe I'm missing something.
We can see from these examples that Spanish has more direct object pronouns than English. Where we might use 'you' in English, in Spanish we might need: 'te', 'os', 'lo', 'la', 'los', or 'las'. The last three are trickiest because we have to remember that the 'usted' 'you' and 'ustedes' 'you' often take the same for as 'they'/'it'/'them' because when we use 'usted' and 'ustedes', we're talking about the other person in the third person. Kind of like in historical dramas when e.g. a priest calls the king (sat in front of them) 'his majesty' rather than 'you' or 'your majesty'.
The book has examples for indirect object pronouns too but it's… erm… quite painstaking to type out this kind of thing, so I'll leave it here and encourage you to find a cheap copy of the book or find a PDF (the 3rd and 4th editions seem to be available on the high seas – in the third edition, I would hazard a guess that the relevant chapter is 39). I'll finish by saying that 'le' is the indirect object used when you would say 'him, her, you [usted form]', and 'les' is the indirect object used when you would say 'them, you [ustedes form]'. And 'indirect objects do not distinguish between gender'.
Hopefully this makes sense. I think it's easier in practice than in theory, once you're aware of the broad idea.
Thank you SO MUCH! All your tips have been incredibly helpful. I’ve downloaded a Spanish dictionary for my kindle, and some short story books. I found a short Spanish poetry collection on LibriVox and the narrators voice is wonderful. The cadence is relaxing too so I’ve been listening to it as I go to sleep. I can’t tell you what the poem is about but I can definitely understand some words!
This review of the book couldn’t be more spot on for me;
"The students that have bought the book on my recommendation have found it very useful. They find it difficult to understand grammatical terms as they haven't got a grounding in English grammar. The book helps them to understand how their own language works and how this can be applied to another language. It speeds up their progress in Spanish"
That’s why I was struggling to even explain what I didn’t understand- I don’t know the correct terms for English grammar. Which is absolutely ridiculous considering I got an A* for English Language at GCSE and an A for English Literature at A-level! The book is out of print now but I found a pdf and I’ve ordered a used copy (I’m old and I think I’ll always prefer learning from physical books).
I’m going to take your advice on translating word for word if it’s the easiest way for me right now. I’ll let the thinking in Spanish come in time. I look forward to the epiphany moment! I have had a tiny one already, very near the start I was able to read a sign a tennis fan was holding up: “Carlitos, mi hijo quiere tu camiseta”. It’s got to be up there with “Dónde está la biblioteca” as one of the most simple Spanish sentences but I was so pleased with myself for understanding something irl!
Thank you again for the effort you put into helping me. I truly appreciate it - you’ve made my week!
You're very welcome.
I hope you're enjoying the poetry. If you like that kind of thing, one exercise that I like doing is translating song lyrics. Dom La Nena, Bomba Estéreo, and La Femme are good for that. If a translation already exists on e.g. Google (search song title + 'letra'), you can check yours against it. Or: make a word document with a table with two columns. English goes on one. Spanish in the other. Then listen to the song on repeat. Read the English through one translation. Then Spanish in the next. Do this a few times. Talk about ear worms!
We're in s similar position. I was getting so frustrated with grammar books. Oh that's how you conjugate the future imperfect? Wow, great, thanks. But wtf is the future imperfect?! Some of the grammar is straightforward enough. For the trickier bits, this book comes in handy (there's one for French and maybe German if you revert branch out).
It's great when you see Spanish in the wild and understand it, isn't it? You're already on the right track if this is happening. As you build up your vocab you'll also build up chunks of language (collocations) like this. Interpreting the vocab, then the chunks will become more and more automatic until your brain just goes straight from Spanish to meaning.
One thing that can help with automaticity is grammar drills. I'm not very consistent, but I grab a notebook and write out a sentence, then change one variable and write it again, and so on. You can't go over the basics too many times. Once you hit the sweet spot of over-learning, you won't forget it.
The same principle applies to reading. It's good to stretch yourself but also to go over and over texts that only included the basic grammar structures that you already know. I find the really young children's books too difficult as they're written for adults to read aloud and the first steps books contain too few words. Books aimed at 8–9+ get the balance about right. An enjoyable enough book series written for native children (translated from English but that doesn't matter) is Isadora Moon by Harriet Muncaster. If you were to sail the high seas, you might see it on a clear day.
(I say it like this not just in an attempt to be witty but also as an opportunity to say that while Spanish uses the subjective quite a bit, and some say it's never used in English, this use of 'were to' is a rare example of the subjunctive in English (I think!).)
When you're more confident, Bernard Cornwell's Last Kingdom series is good because it's mostly in the first person so you get loads of repetition of the grammar that you need to talk about yourself. (I got stuck at #4 at first, though. I didn't get on with the translation. Six months later, I picked it up and it was fine – so it was my lack rather than the translators.) You can also watch the Netflix series dubbed in Spanish before or after to hear how professional voice actors pronounce the words you're reading. (The books don't align too well with the show, though, so if you love the books read them first or you'll get spoilers.)
I don't think anything is simple with languages lol. But when something is the object of a sentence, you use le (or les when plural). Otherwise you use lo, la, or el (or los, las, ellos) depending on the gender of the noun. There's definitely a million more rules that I'm overlooking but uh anyway...
The grammar of your sentence is much more clear if we don't leave out "I" and add in a "the"
- Yo le mando las notas. = I send him/her/them (singular)/it/you (formal) the notes.
- Yo le mando la nota. = I send him/her/them (singular)/it/you (formal) the note.
- Yo les mando la nota. = I send them (plural) the note.
And if we change who's sending the note, then we change the verb to match but leave the rest of the sentence the same.
- Tu les mandas la nota. = You send them (plural) the note.
- Ella les manda la nota. = She sends them (plural) the note.
- Nosotros les mandamos la nota. = We send them (plural) the note.
EDIT: Actually here's a better explanation. You know how there's 5 categories of pronouns (6 in Spain) that you gotta memorize? Yo, Tu, El/Ella/Usted, Ellos/Ellas/Ustedes, Nosotros? Well when those words are being acted upon they become Me, Te, Le, Les, Nos, respectively. Le and Les are completely unrelated to La and Lo even though they're one letter apart. Here's more examples:
- Yo te mando las notas. = I send you (casual) the notes.
- Yo me mando las notas. = I send myself the notes.
- Yo nos mando las notas. = I send us the notes.
You can sometimes attach these pronouns to verbs too. I forget the exact rules but if you ever see these attached to a verb as a suffix then that's what that means. Like...
- Yo quiero mandarle las notas. = I want to send him/her/them (singular)/it/you (formal) the notes.
- Mandales la nota! = Send them (plural) the note!
- Yo estoy mandándonos las notas. = I am sending us the notes.
Omg, you just fixed Spanish for me!! Thank you!
I’m from the UK and want to learn European Spanish but duo uses “usted” so I tend to drop the pronoun(?) and start the sentence with the “you” verb form. But it makes so much more sense when I add the I/you/whatever and the “the”.
Would it be correct to think of “send” as “le mando” rather than just “mando” when I’m talking about an action + object? I don’t know why my brain needs it that way 🤦🏼♀️
No problem! 😎 I'm Mexican American so I can't help you with Spanish Spanish but what's wrong with Usted? It's just a formal/polite way of saying "you". Granted, I never use it, but it's a common thing people say.
Also, in Spanish the infinitive form of a verb ends with -ar or -er (or whatever else idk). So "to send" = "mandar", "to eat" = "comer", "to write" = "escribir", etc. I dunno what you mean by action + object but as long as you can remember the word and conjugate it correctly in a sentence then I don't think it matters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
In European Spanish “usted” is extremely formal. You’d use it talking to a judge, the pope, royalty. It’s not really used in everyday language and it would definitely sound odd to a Spaniard.
Spaniards use “tú” for “you” and “vosotros” for you plural (you all). “Vosotros” is more informal than “tú”. When using vosotros verbs conjugate like this:
Hablar -> habláis Comer -> coméis Vivir -> vivís
From what I understand vosotros isn’t taught at all in America because it’s practically unheard of in Latin America. But vosotros is is an essential part of your vocabulary if you’re speaking Spanish in Spain or talking to a Spaniard. You can make yourself understood by using usted, but you won’t sound like a native.
From the other comments what I was trying to say with object + action was “(in)direct object pronouns”. Not knowing the grammatical terms in English is definitely not helping me learn Spanish grammar, but hopefully the book redtea recommended will help me with that!
Thank you again for your help!
Actually, they did teach us vosotros in the US, at least for me. It was very annoying because there were literally 0 Spaniards in my class or neighborhood. Everyone who spoke Spanish was Latine, but they made us learn grammar that we'd never use anyway.
In Latin America, Usted is used in the situations you described in addition to talking with strangers, your boss, a cop, or anyone else you want to suck up to. But using tu instead isn't a big deal I mean, I always use it.
P.S. I think you're mixing up "tu" with "ustedes". Because vosotros definitely can't replace tu hehe
P.S.S. I edited my original comment. It's either more confusing or less now, who knows
That’s interesting - and it sounds very frustrating!How long ago were you at school?
I was confusing tu and usted - my brain hurts! I don’t know if you speak French as well but the rules are very similar - tú/tu is informal, usted/vous is formal but if you only knew the formal version it wouldn’t be a problem, you’d just sound overly polite and a bit stiff. Usted in European Spanish is like saying your honour/highness in English. It’s so ridiculously subservient you’d never use it. But you can’t speak Spanish in Spain without knowing vosotros - it’s frustrating that it isn’t included at all in duolingo and 95% of language learning apps.
I’m going off on a tangent now but the most ridiculous thing about duolingo is it’s instance on using soccer instead of football. I practice French and Ukrainian as well as learning Spanish on duolingo and in any language if you translate football/футбол (futbol)/fútbol as “football” it’s marked as incorrect. It will only accept “soccer” 😂 I understand not teaching vosotros if it’s only used in one country but literally the rest of the world call football, football!
I haven’t read your edited comment yet, I’ll save it for when my brain is less muddled. Thanks again, you’re a star!
I took those Spanish classes about ten years ago? They're required in many school districts, even for students who already speak the language (my school offered advanced classes for us but I don't know what was different about them).
I don't speak French but I see what you mean. Usted isn't THAT formal in LatAm Spanish lol. But it's very weird that Duolingo doesn't teach Spainish because that's the form that's generally considered more "official". I'm guessing that it's because Duolingo is an American company. It's probably why they use soccer too.
And thanks for the compliment uwu
not a native speaker, but my 2 centavos are (very simplified):
- lo/la: this is just him/her or genderized "it"
- le: is to him / to her
- ...s: same but plural
in use:
- Le mando notas: i send notes to him
- Le mando las: I send them (as in the notes, female) to him
- perplexingly, le can point at female or male objects, it's a indirect object pronoun for both sexes
maybe that makes it clearer:
https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/5950/A-Level/Spanish/When-is-it-right-to-use-lo-la-and-le-in-Spanish/
Edit: I did like five edits to that already, I agree this shit is confusing.
It would be Le las mando (I send them (to) him). The pronouns always go before the verb.
Le is the indirect pronoun. So, to him, for him, with him, etc. This almost always refers to a person/pet/etc. It it the thing the verb is happening to.
Lo(s)/la(s) is the direct object. It's the target of the verb (I send what? I send notes = las mando). These can be things or people. (I called him = lo llamé).
Your edit really made me laugh! Thank you for making me feel less stupid!
And thank you for the explanation. It’s definitely “le” being gender neutral that was confusing me. You’re going to gender a table but not him/her?! 🤷🏼♀️ thank you again!
What about a singular note? If I’m sending her notes does it become la? If I was sending them notes would it be las or les? If notas is feminine why don’t I use la?
I don't know spanish, but based on my knowledge in fr*nch, I think "le" returns to the person being sent, since it's a known person "the person" and the notes are "notes" "a note", for them, it depends on the gender of the group you're sending, a group of men it's les, group of women it's las, group of men and women prolly les too. You don't say "la notas" because it's multiple "a note".
Is there a simple way to remember whatever the rule is? Thanks
The issue is that you're probably using English direct translation to try and understand it, if you're an English speaker you should know that English isn't really a gendered language. I guess a way you could do it is making the sentence like longer, from "I am sending him notes" to "I am sending the male person notes"
I just replied to the other comment on here that “I give her a flower” is “le doy una flor” even though both her and flower are feminine. Now I’m even more lost!
I’m definitely still in the translate-word-by-word stage of language learning, but I’m normally pretty good at remembering that nouns have genders and which gender to use. I could make myself understood by saying “le doy una flor a la mujer” but I still don’t understand why it’s le and not la.
I'll be honest with you I'm also lost, wait for someone who actually understands spanish to talk
Lol. At least it’s not just me! Thanks for your input anyway. 😊
Le isn't gendered. "Le doy una flor" can also translate to "I give him a flower" and "I give it a flower" and "I give them (singular) a flower"
Everything becomes le (or les) if they're the object of a sentence.
I cant answer the other questions, but based on google translate, “le” is ~~masculine because you are sending him notes.~~ the person you are sending notes to. The gender of the object doesn’t matter in that situation. If you’re sending them notes then it becomes “les.”
I’m practicing on duolingo now and I translated this wrong:
I give her a flower.
I wrote: la doy una flor.
Both “she” and “Flor” are feminine. I’m female. So why is it the masculine “le”?
If I was giving her flowers would it be “las doy flores” or “les doy flores”?
If I was giving her a newspaper (masculine) would it be le or la?
I commented above but wanted to reply directly to you.
I give a flower to Ana = doy una flor a Ana
Replace Ana with a pronoun (le - inderect objects are non gendered): I give her a flower = le doy una flor
Replace flor with a pronoun (la - direct objects are gendered): I give it to Ana = La doy a Ana
Replace both: I give her it = Le la doy
Thank you, that’s really clear.
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