this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023

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ErgoMechKeyboards

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Ergonomic, split and other weird keyboards

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¹ split meaning a separation of the halves, whether fixed in place or entirely separate, both are fine.
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Explorer Pi V2 Complete (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by demibyte to c/ergomechkeyboards

20 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Finally completed my Explorer Pi V2 build. My primary goals for V2 was to adjust economics to fit my hand, improve build quality while reducing total part count, and to create a better thumb cluster. A lot of these changes trade modularity to achieve these goals, which is not a big loss as I get closer to endgame design.

Thumb cluster was my biggest complaint with the original; being modular made the whole assembly too weak and key spacing to large; not to mention inflating the part count. So I made a one piece design with additional mounting support. Also went with a six key, two row design. Finally I make the switch plate compatible with either MX or Choc switches (and swappable). Used my Enigma Dual Hot Swap pcbs for the thumb cluster keys. This thumb cluster is probably going to see some future iterations. I've made things fully modular in case I want to swap it out for a new one later.

I've made quite a few changes to the original to arrive at this point including:

adjusted stagger of each column
adjusted splay and height on the pinky columns
used flexible pcbs (from the BigSkree)
made the switch plate one piece per side (orig was individual columns)
added side walls to the switch plate
added additional support to the thumb cluster so it has less wobble
one piece, 6 key thumb cluster
support for both choc and mx switches on thumb cluster
added ARRI locating holes to the 1/4" mounting point
reduced total count of required inserts and screws
reduced diameter of the 1/4" insert hole to better fit the inserts I was able to source
adjusted 1/4" mount location for better center of balance.

While I originally was planning on taking more build photos and putting together a guide for this iteration I had a bit of a lightbulb moment while assembling this for how to improve the entire build dramatically so that going to be a goal for V3 now.

As a slight aside I came up with a pretty good mounting solution for this board. Each half has a stand using these rubber coated magnets, a low profile hawklock and super low small ballhead mounts. With my v2.5 base plate I modified the 1/4" center of balance so that these stands balance well enough on a non magnetic surface to type on. They are also rubber coated so surface damage as well as sliding are minimized. Then for my main setup to make things even more secure I simply place a piece of sheet steel under my desk pad. I'm liking this enough that I'm starting to wonder about the embedding some steel in the desk permanently.
Imgur

Keycaps:

DES alphas R2-R4
4x DES Thumbs R5x
2x DES R5 1.25u
2x cDES R5x
2x CS 1.25u
2x Gravity 1.25u

Switches:

MX Boba U4
Choc Sunsets

The Boba U4's are the second switch I've tried on here and still not satisfied. Anyone have some good silent tactile switch suggestions?

Links:

all 23 comments

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@demibyte Looks gorgeous. Isn't that too high though? Can't rest your wrists.

[–] demibyte 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I had considered adding integrated wrist rests but I rest my elbows on armrests and it hasn't really been any issue.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I wish I was enough of an artist to draw how I envision this.

[+] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] demibyte 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hasn't really come up yet, I'm wfh, but yeah I would want to take this with me if I could. Actually bought a hardcase to stick this in should I need to travel with it.

Going back to something flat would be a bit of an exercise. Sculpted alphas would go a long way even on a flat board but the biggest difference would be in the thumb cluster comfort.

[+] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] demibyte 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Keywell keyboards will give you less, and more natural finger travel compared to a flat board. Though with only 3 rows the difference isn't really all that much compared to a flat board with good sculpted keys. It's a much bigger deal once you go larger than 3 rows.

For me the major motivation to try out this style of board was the curved thumb cluster. At least in my opinion most thumb clusters you see are pretty terrible from an ergonomics perspective. Even when you get one that doesn't encourage curling your thumb under your fingers a flat arc doesn't really correspond with the thumbs most natural movement. I find curved arc of this thumb cluster more natural and allows for more keys to be comfortably arranged than would otherwise be possible.

[–] DanL4 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You'd be surprised to feel the difference in a keywell such as yours paired with super sculpted keycaps! Assuming that a keywell makes keycap sculpting unnecessary, but then learnt that the manuform was designed around SA keycaps, I gave that a try, with extra sculpt. Instead of the regular 2,3,4 (3rd row being flat, 2 and 4 being slightly sculpted in opposite direction), I tried 1,3,4, where 1st row is for number row and fn row. It's super tall and sculpted. It was heavily! It reduced finger movement even more, but as you said - it was in a natural way.

Highly recommended!

My previous Dactyl Manuform was very low profile with choc switches, it was very elegant, more than most Dactyl Manuforms. The last one I built and am using now, is the bog standard 3x5 with SA keycaps - much, much taller but so much better!

What didn't you like about the U4? Are you using the U4t (for tactile)? It's the first silent switch I've used and I love it, but don't know any better. I might have to get new switches for building your variation, and if you've got a recommendation for a u4t alternative (and the reason it's better) I'd love to hear it!

Anyway - great photos, and again, beautiful build!

[–] demibyte 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah I've never actually tried non-sculpted caps on a keywell so I'm really just guessing on the difference. I started with sculpted caps on my moonlander and never really touched non sculpted caps since.

The switches as U4 silent tactiles, not the U4t. I'm getting more used to them after a couple days of typing but they still feel a bit scratchy and abrupt. Also some of the keys have a bit of ping to them. Some of this might be due to my swapping the springs with 45g ones. More than the feel though, which again I'm growing more used to (and maybe is improving as they break in), they aren't all that silent. The silent squids which I had on here before by comparison where dead quiet; they just felt a tad mushy. I think I'd rather have true silence with a little bit of mush or just go with non-silent tactiles (like T1 Sunflower's on previous build) with superior tactile feel.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Next to U4s I can also recommend Durock Shrimp Silent and TTC Blueish White Silent

[–] demibyte 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks! I actually had Shrimp silents on here previously and I prefer them to the U4's. I'm giving these a chance but I think I'll be swapping these U4s back out for the shrimps unless I end up with something else. I'll have to look at the TTC's.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

My friend has the TTCs and while I'm linear gang they did feel and sound pretty good and I'm looking to try them out sometime as well.

[–] drkhrse96 2 points 1 year ago

Cool looking build! Thanks for the info.

[–] PeachMan 2 points 1 year ago

Damn that's cool. I just built a Redox and you've got me wanting to start over.....

[–] mittyta 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Congratulations, it's amazing!

I like how you use low profile keys for first row in thumb clusters, and high for second row. I came up to same idea in my custom build. (But in really awkward way by gluing two keycaps together )

[–] demibyte 1 points 1 year ago

Thanks. Love they simplicity of your solution.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Very tidy!

I just finished a MJF Scylla with MX browns and nice nanos, now looking at this I can't help but feel you're loosing a lot of the ergonomics by having them bound so close together? Shoulder position was a crux of the old non splits but you've chose it again?

Looks like it could be fixed with a longer cable however.

[–] demibyte 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ulnar deviation is the main ergonomic issue that split keyboards address. You can eliminate this by rotating your splits away from each other so that you don't have any bend in your wrist. Shoulder position doesn't really change much no matter where you position things, only the muscles that are engaged change much and it's actually more work to spread your arms than it is having them point inwards. How common tasks are there that involve working with our hands at shoulder width?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Shoulder width is a much more relaxed pose for sure.

[–] demibyte 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I feel like you didn't actually read what I wrote... If you were going to mix some cake batter where would you position the bowl/spoon. Naturally you are going to work with it more less centered on your body. Sewing, widdling, tool usage ect... It's not about your shoulders is Ulnar deviation. Why do you think we consider boards like the miryoku or alice style boards as ergomech if they are not shoulder width spaced?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The point is, you don't have to have them in front of your face like the rest you mentioned... Unless you are looking at the keys?

Plus, soldering, knife and fork, cake batter, if you did them all day, yes, you would get shorter muscles in the front of your chest and longer in the back of your neck and shoulders leading to poor posture. Hunched.

If you don't need the space, I wouldn't think you'd split when you could make 1 board, ala logitech ergo with a bit of tent.

[–] demibyte 1 points 1 year ago

Not sure what your picture of anatomy looks like if you think these are in my face... plus what would I be looking at, they keys are blank. Again the real advantage to a spilt is allow for free translation along the X axis and rotation on Z.

If you like having your boards spaced shoulder width great but you are really off about your view of the ergonomics. Take a look at how people use spilts and other one piece ergo boards. Also we work with our hands if front of our chests because of the economics not in spite of it. Working this way doesn't lead to hunched posture...