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Parliament will debate petition: Make lying in the House of Commons a criminal offence - 23rd October 2023
(petition.parliament.uk)
this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2023
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They'd all be in prison if that was law.
Don't get my hopes up like that.
Oh I wonder how this will come out. Gosh I'm biting my nails.
can't believe it's not already
Great idea. Won't happen though. The ministerial code already has something about this. The get out jail free card (literally) is that you have to prove intent of lying. Knowingly lied. That the key.
You saw how hard it was to get BoJo held to account. Imagine that shit show year round. Opposition will claim MP lied. MP will deny. "I didn't knowningly lie". "Yea you did". And so on and so forth.
The principle is sound. But I can't help thinking this is like a wrecking ammendment designed so that the sitting government (Tories in this case) say no because it will be deliberately unworkable and then for the opposition parties to go, "oh my days the Tories literally want to lie in parliament boo and hissssssss!!!".
Would love to see this done properly via independent parliament HR. The stress is on independent and with proper powers and fact checking.
You miss a very pertinent point that they must correct the record at the earliest possible time. The ministerial code is also under the discretion of the PM of the day, so will only be put to a committee for discussion if he deems it necessary. This falls short when the PM himself is habitually breaking the code. Sunak as well as his ministers are again following suite by making up figures for the dispatch box, and failing to correct the record when it is pointed out.
Yeah that's all good and everything. But when would they correct the record? Could they continue to delay by saying "well at the time I said what I said because I believed it to be the truth!".
That's basically what BoJo said for two years.
And Johnson lost out at the first actual investigation. As for when, they are government in control of parliamentary time. They can come back when ever they feel it is needed. The only provision would be the set hours parliament sits.
The problem with Johnson was that it was never allowed to go beyond the verbal criticism phase. He was questioned many times in PMQs regarding his factual statements, and because he was in control of the next part of the process, it never went further than that. Moreso he had the support of the majority of MPs to back him up. Once those MPs realised that this was costing them more votes than they could possibly gain from Johnson, they marked his card. Party politics have always superseded due process when it comes to parliamentary behaviour. The control behind the adjudication needs talking away from the culprits committing the crime.
There has never been anything so egregious in parliament in the way the Tories currently behave though. They are showing little sign of wanting to change back. They are behaving like smug school kids who have used the legal system to get one over on their teachers. It will bite them later on. What they have done will be recorded as a pertinent event to learn from in history. Much like the autopsy that the US will inevitably go through after the Trump trials. That is provided he does not defeat the litigation.
The control behind the adjudication needs talking away from the culprits committing the crime
Fully agree 💯
It already is... in a way.
It is against the rules of both houses to knowingly mislead the house, and Parliament is free to punish its members up to and including imprisoning them (until dissolution, anyway).
Well that's the point of this, if they make it a crime then they shouldn't be able to get away with doing it.
Yes, I expect much change in the house of commons as a result if this debate... /s
What the fuck is the point of these petitions anyways, never seen a single one amount to anything, and the moment they removed the ability to no confidence the PM via the petition it lost all potency.
If you're gonna have petitions make them proper, direct democracy style.
I don't think your /s is necessary. Especially on a UK community where sarcasm is expected by default :)
This is one of those things that seems so obvious. I wonder if many people already believe it's an offense.
Of course, it'll never happen. How many of those fuckers are likely to vote to be criminally penalised for their dishonesty? Not a lot, I'm thinking. Lying is how they make their money and consolidate their power. Wankers. It should be a criminal offense - the fact that they are allowed to lie without penalty undermines democracy. How are they supposed to make an informed and democratic vote if they're doing so based on mendacious info?
Also, I could be wrong about this but I have the idea in my head that the house is legally a court. And under certain circumstances, lying to a court is already criminal. So maybe this is already illegal? I'm probably wrong there, the people behind this petition surely know more than me.
This is a daft idea, it would basically stop any politican from saying anything or making any policy announcements. The people promoting this will be annoyed when MPs treat this deabate as a joke, but it's a completely unrealistic proposal.
Yes it's completely unrealistic to tell the truth.
The key word is "knowingly". Making a statement that is your best understanding of the situation but doesn't turn out to be true in the fullness of time is very different to lying.
would basically stop any politician from saying anything
So you're saying that it is impossible for a politician to speak without lying ?
I don't care who you normally vote for, would you mind sitting the next election out ? Preferably all the ones after that too.
No, but I'm saying that if you make it illegal "lie" then they will say very little in case they are accused of lying.
I'm saying that if you make it illegal "lie" then they will say very little in case they are accused of lying.
Why the scare quotes around lie ? The word has a straight forward meaning which is already defined in House of Commons rules.i.e knowingly mislead.
It's not even "negligently mislead" where they say something they should have known was not true, but the much tougher test of proving they knew it wasn't true.
A ridiculously low bar, and yet you think even that is too high. Is this because you support politicians who have been shown regularly to knowingly mislead ?
The majority of parliament arrive carefully well prepared with facts. It's only a small number who deliberately lie, our former PM has been proved to be one of those.
But there would be nobody left?