this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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Well-regulated capitalism on the other hand has resulted in an explosion of technological advancement like no other era in human history.
The key is regulation. Not too little, but not too much either. Some things, like minimum wage, are clearly under regulated. Other things, like mandating USB-C, are honestly better left to the free market (and I fucking love USB-C.)
the systems is still inherently flawed and based on exploiting nature and people. Trying to make a system that is based on "infinite growth" adhere to the reality of our finite world is like telling a warrior society that they should start being peaceful
Yes. Regulation helps to work around the problem but doesn't fix anything
All systems dealing with human nature will inherently be flawed and require workarounds and bandaids.
There is no perfect system, but throughout human history, capitalism seems to have consistently resulted in technological growth and improved outcomes in terms of health, lifespan, creature-comforts, etc.
We tried communism - over 30 countries did - and the only ones left are China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos. Interestingly, current and previous communist states got a lot closer to "regulating breathing" than anything we have today. It's not a good look as far as stable and free systems go.
Nothing is perfect and there are infinite other options than capitalism or fake communism
What are those options? Have they been trialed and errored?
If not, how do we actually know they will work in practice? For instance, communism was ideal on paper and fell apart in practice - no country was able to ever "truly" implement it. What other ideologies exist that could practically work? It's a bit premature in my opinion to call any of them "better than capitalism" when none have been tried.
that's the thing, the same things were said about participatory goverment (democracy) and capitalism before they were implemented. Greece implemented participatory oligarchy and got conquered. Rome tried it out but resulted in dictatorship and fell apart. France wanted to abolish feudalism and ended in bloody tyranny... Reminds you of previous and current socialists experiments, doesn't it?
@[email protected] which systems are currently most viable options instead of capitalism or totalitarianism
There are several alternative systems to consider as alternatives to capitalism or totalitarianism. Here are a few examples:
Socialism: Socialism aims to distribute resources and wealth more equally among members of society. It emphasizes collective ownership, democratic decision-making, and social justice.
Communism: Communism envisions a classless and stateless society where all property is collectively owned. It advocates for the abolition of private property, emphasizing common ownership and the principle of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."
Anarchism: Anarchism seeks to eliminate hierarchical structures and promote self-governance. It rejects the authority of the state and advocates for decentralized decision-making and voluntary cooperation among individuals and communities.
Participatory Economics: Participatory Economics, also known as parecon, proposes an economic system based on self-managed worker and consumer cooperatives. It aims to ensure economic justice, workplace democracy, and balanced decision-making through participatory methods.
Democratic Socialism: Democratic socialism combines elements of socialism and democracy. It advocates for democratic control of the means of production, a mixed economy, and a strong welfare state to ensure social equality and protection.
It's important to note that the viability and effectiveness of these systems can vary depending on the context, as their implementation and outcomes can be influenced by various factors. Additionally, there are several other alternative systems and models that offer different approaches to economic and political organization.
This response was generated by GPT 3.5 because you exhausted your daily limit for GPT-4.
Neither capitalism nor communism was tried either. Capitalism has taken over by force. Totalitarians have tried the same in the name of communism. Some actual communist attempts seem to be working when left unintervened by capitalists or authoritarians.
It's anyone guess which other system could be worth moving forward. Currently the only limiting thing seems to be the lack of a mindset to progress by a critical mass.
It is disingenuous to say that communism has never been tried. It's been tried over 30 times, but it's never been able to live up to the ideal of "true" communism.
If your system falls apart as soon as people become greedy or power hungry, it's not a practical or stable system. You can't expect people to ignore those emotions and you definitely cannot bake that expectation into a system that needs to be resilient enough to sustain a society for centuries.
I'm pretty sure most can agree that communism has been tried in village and tribe sized societies through the history of humanity.
It's not the most honest claim to say that big authoritarian states like USSR or China have ever even tried it, and just used the name for marketing and support from gullible population.
Are places like Rojava and Kerala relevant examples? Maybe, I'm not an expert on the subject
Greed is an interesting topic. Capitalism creates and rewards greed and it's prominence in human psychology could be less in alternative systems.
I agree it works at village-scale, but in my opinion what we have seen is a failure of communism to scale to a nation with tens or hundreds of millions of people, and survive for decades at that.
Sounds like you'd want some kind of anarcho-communism where those smaller groups of people work together with other ones to form networks encompassing millions. Democracy at human level instead of top-down authorities
There is still a power incentive. In the proposed system we would likely factions rapidly forming to gather the most power and resources as quickly as possible. It would probably be quite bloody. (What you are describing is effectively the tribe system, which rarely ended well for most tribes.)
As long as resource scarcity exists I just don't see this working out, unfortunately.
In my mentioned system the power would be in cooperation. Fighting against that would lose power.
Resource scarcity is mostly a decision problem. Capitalism doesn't have incentive to let anyone benefit from the excessive resources so those in control won't decide for it.
Capitalism is no more based on "infinite growth" than human psychology is based on "infinite pleasure".
Capitalism, like humans in general, is perfectly capable of surviving through extended periods in which the future will be worse than the past.
For example, the Japanese economy has been stagnant for a couple of decades, but Japan is still capitalist.
Any system dealing with human nature will always be inherently flawed. The fact is, in over 250,000 years of our species existing, our technological prowess only really exploded once the concepts of money and trade were invented. Regulate these properly, and you have an incredibly powerful industrial machine that will improve everyone's lives.
Tw: rape
You realize that, capitalism, if left EVER unrelated, will use power to endlessly underregulate itself and just gain more power?
This is like saying "firing a gun in my mouth doesn't kill me as long as I live". Sure, it's true I guess, but it's also so, so inherently wrong.
I've been trying to do what you're doing now for so long. But in reality, you have to take a look at what capitalism really is: it's a form of power designation that designates that power with the powerful, or pedantically, with capital, but it's the same thing, for all intents and purposes. And THAT is an unbalanced system from the get-go, right off the bat.
It's also like saying "slave systems are SUPER productive!". Like, sure, they are. But they're also incredibly destructive and prevent a lot of other things from happening.
It's also like saying "a lot of sex happens when you rape somebody". Sure, yes, I guess that's technically a true statement. But.... It's an unwanted power imbalance that hasn't accounted for what would have happened to the victim OR the rapist had they not raped somebody. The rapist could have developed into a normal human being and even fell in love or had a lot of consensual casual sex, and the victim could have stayed not raped and been perfectly happy progressing through their life not raped.
It's just such a half baked, biscuit brained thought and statement. You literally cannot compare our tech right now to the past because technology typically progresses exponentially ANYWAY. You cannot know what would have happened or what would happen if not capitalism, because we've had nothing BUT it for basically all of human history. Every time we even want to try something else, capitalism LITERALLY attacks it with everything it's got and refuses to ever let up until there's nothing but ashes, and a lot of those places are capitalist. Native Americans? IMPERIALISM BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM.
Greed kills selflessness every time in every experiment as long as it exists and is given the smallest chance.
Capitalism is cancer; it just mindless destroys everything in it's path, along with itself, only existing and leeching as long as its host stays alive.
You gotta read some more books and history.
Capitalism, well-regulated, has worked - it's not some dangerous idea that will result in our self-destruction (at least, there is no historical basis for this.) On the other hand, history shows we are much more likely to see communism self-destruct (into authoritarianism/totalitarianism.)
I agree that the generational wealth aspect is the worst aspect of capitalism and I wish that could be reformed.
A note - technology does not progress exponentially. In fact, it rarely has. We have had dark ages lasting between hundreds and tens of thousands of years between incremental advancements. The progress of technology is in no way guaranteed, your society needs to encourage continued R&D into technology, which regulated competition/profit motive does especially well.
I anticipate that at some point in the future we can abandon capitalism entirely, as we will have technologically advanced to the point where we don't need it anymore.
I used to think this was true too, but then I realized that the fundamental problem with capitalism is that it's incompatible with democracy and regulation. That's why literally every capitalist country on earth (including the wealthy ones) has a problem with regulatory capture, corruption, and buyout and supplanting of the actual government.
Capitalism encourages the greediest, trickiest, and most selfish people to rise to the top and stay there through a mixture of brute force and media manipulation. In essence, it's not much different than totalitarian authoritarian governments, it's just more subtle.
Look at Fox news and right wing media bubbles for instance, or the Democratic party which opposes ranked choice voting whenever it can and constantly says one thing and does another. Humans are too greedy, selfish, and short-sighted to live and exist for long under a system like capitalism. How do we know this? Look around, climate change and pollution's already serious and it's not changing anytime soon.
We're probably already fucked, and we just don't know how much we are just yet.
Capitalism builds on competetion but favors behavior which eliminates competitors. This inner tension of capitalism makes it easily degrade into an authoritharian system. But it does not make it the same as one. Regulation is needed to maintain fair competetion which sounds paradoxical but is also a tension in the capitalism as such.
Democracies struggle with capitalism but they struggle much more with planned state. Struggle is in the nature of free agents of democracy, so it does not have to suggest incompatibility.
The issue is that greed is an aspect of human nature. You'll never be able to eliminate it. Any system that relies on greed, corruption, and selfishness not existing, will ultimately fail, because that system relies on humans pretending that certain emotions don't exist.
Capitalism is deeply flawed, but it's stability as a system is not predicated on humans trying (and inevitably failing) to delete fundamental human emotions.
I would even say it is one of the key components of everything we consider life. On the other hand, other components include selflesness, compassion and sacrifice. Denying and of these features leads to disfunctional systems
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2020/08/how-capitalism-stifles-innovation
Fine, so long as you ban campaign donations and most forms of lobbying.
Otherwise regulation goes to the highest bidder.
I am pro healthy capitalism too (including strong welfare state) but don't agree that capitalism deserves any credit for technological advancement. Science does. And there shouldn't be any comparison between the totalitarian states and free-capitalism states of the past. We can't give credit to a thief for prosperity because he is not a murderer.
Science doesn't exist in a vacuum. With capitalism, you're directly incentivized to invest in R&D because you can come out with a better product that people will want, thus advancing science. Everything from the lightbulb to HVAC machines started as capitalistic endeavors as opposed to purely academic ones.
Economic systems are fundamentally about resource allocation. Capitalism is not the only system that allocates resources to science nor is it the optimal one. You're making a lot of assumptions on what makes a "better" product. Under capitalism, "better" is quantified as whatever brings in the highest return on investment, which doesn't align with and is often diametrically opposed to the interests of the end users of that technology.
This is especially relevant for things like lightbulbs, cell phones, cars, etc, which are constructed in such a way that they will only last a certain amount of time, because the other alternative would be a product that never failed, and therefore only needed to be purchased once. True technological advancement would be the perfection of technology, but capitalism would never allow that because it wouldn't be profitable in the long term
Government regulation is the route to go for the edge cases where capitalism incentivizes dark patterns. For cases where an endeavor is unprofitable, government investment is typically the way to go, and seems to work rather well (eg NASA and the many inventions that came out of it, that arguably form the basis of our modern life.)
I am not calling for unfettered capitalism, but I do think we have struck a somewhat happy medium today compared to almost any other point in human history. I think it can be improved further, but I see no evidence, historical or otherwise, that communism could fare better.
It starts out that way, but regulation always fails and things get worse. The scientific method is young, most inventions were stolen and excessively exploited wayyyyy past what's ethical, and the standard expectation for level of exploitation is exponentially approaching dystopia. But at least capitalism will save us! (Good luck!)
As others said, science also needs governance, direction. Scientists have internal motivation and sense of what to do, but they often disagree and choices for resource allocation need to be made. Exteme competetiveness in some scientific institutions can cause bad culture (like favoring hype over achievement) but authoritharian systems also often breed bad science (like what soviets disregarded quantum physics at first). Speaking as a scientist myself.
Paradoxically regulation is needed to ensure free and fair competetion in science (and in other things)
There is a lot of space for discussion on the desired reach of free market and regulation, and it is actually happening in politics. Too bad in public space it sometimes looks like the only options are extreme capitalism or anticapitalism.
By the way, highly regulated authoritarian states have even more success to regulate breathing than capitalism, so it is weird to focus the hate on one but not the other.
On the other hand there is something to be said about those who feel like they are left out by the system which does not self correct in their favor. Hearing their voices, which might justifiably sound extreme, is important.
I'm not sure. I only have rudimentary knowledge when it comes to the arts (hello Western school of fine art education), but I'm pretty sure socialist/communist countries were very creative and innovative when it comes to art, or at least animation. In fact, I think the Soviet Union has been incorporating animation with modern art before the US did.
What do you think @[email protected]? Were there any artworks that thrived under the Soviet Union? Or maybe just innovations in general?
Absolutely, there were numerous artworks and innovations that thrived under the Soviet Union. The Soviet government actively supported and promoted the arts, considering them an integral part of the socialist system. Soviet artists were encouraged to create works that portrayed the ideals of the revolution and celebrated the achievements of the Soviet Union.
In terms of visual arts, the Soviet Union witnessed the rise of various artistic movements and styles. One notable movement was Socialist Realism, which aimed to depict the struggles and triumphs of the working class using realistic techniques. This style became the dominant form of art in the Soviet Union, with numerous sculptures, paintings, and murals being created in this genre.
However, there were also artists who explored other styles and subjects, often pushing the boundaries of acceptable artistic expression under the socialist regime. Avant-garde artists like Kazimir Malevich and Vladimir Tatlin experimented with abstract and constructivist art, challenging traditional artistic conventions.
Additionally, Soviet animation gained international recognition for its creativity and innovative storytelling. Studios like Soyuzmultfilm produced numerous animated films that combined traditional storytelling with modern techniques, using animation as a tool for education and propaganda. Notable works include "Hedgehog in the Fog" and "The Tale of Tales" by Yuri Norstein.
Overall, despite the strict control and censorship imposed by the Soviet government, creativity and innovation thrived in various forms of art under the Soviet Union. Many of these works continue to be appreciated and studied today for their artistic merits and historical significance.
This response was generated by GPT 3.5 because you exhausted your daily limit for GPT-4.
I love Kazimir Malevich's work! But I agree. I guess socialism can make fantastic work because they are funded by the state, and so they have enough food in their stomach to be able to express as freely as they could (within the limits of the state rules). Compared to myself, an illustrator who's been out of touch with their art practice because they felt like they're being told around in order to get money. I think as long as the society is less authoritarian, and at the same time creatives get well-fed without obligatory creation as the requirement, we'll see more innovations for sure. @[email protected]
It's great to hear that you appreciate Kazimir Malevich's work! While it's true that artists receiving state funding can have the resources to focus on their creative practice, it's important to note that not all artists in socialist systems have the freedom to express themselves fully due to restrictions imposed by the state. Additionally, the absence of state funding doesn't mean that artists in other systems cannot produce innovative and meaningful works.
In any society, artists benefit from having the time, resources, and support to create. It's essential to have a balance where artists are able to pursue their artistic vision without being solely driven by monetary constraints. This can be achieved through various means, such as grants, public funding, and a strong social safety net that ensures artists are well-fed and supported.
Promoting a less authoritarian society that nurtures creativity and provides the means for artists to thrive is indeed important for fostering innovation and artistic expression. A more inclusive and equitable arts ecosystem benefits not only artists but society as a whole.
This response was generated by GPT 3.5 because you exhausted your daily limit for GPT-4.
As someone who grew up with soviet animation I'd say it was pretty high quality but also extremely limited in quantity and diversity. Also it was not infrequently associted with dissidents.
I see that you have a good point. I guess high quality innovation and art in general can be quite hard to get by regardless of economic system, at least back then. Who knows if we can invent a new system that can maximize the quality of products that require creative skill, something that can only be done if you have the freedom but at the same time not starving.
Don't say this here. Everyone hates capitalism here.
I think it's important to have people with diverse opinions, with exception ofcourse.
Some people's opinions are pretty fucked lol
Even those people are probably misguided, uneducated or scared.
Probably, but they could also just be evil. Some people actually want things which are not compatible with what many would consider fair.
I used to try to give people the benefit of the doubt
But lately I've been questioning if I should lol