this post was submitted on 08 Apr 2024
52 points (81.7% liked)
Israel and Palestine Politics Discussion
333 readers
12 users here now
The sole purpose of this community is to discuss Israeli and Palestinian issues. It is not the place for hurling insults, rehashing grudges, or making up history. Any conversation that veers into the "if only your people had" realm will be deleted or locked right away. I started this community in the potentially fruitless hope that we may have a civil conversation about this issue.
Rules:
- References to historical events must include a reputable source. The definition of reputable is up to the mods. Keep that in mind.
- Articles from reputable sources only.
- No name-calling. That's what DMs are for. /s
- Keep it in English. If I don't understand the word, it gets removed. Obvious exceptions would be the use of proper names and references. For example, "wadi" when used to refer to a place is acceptable.
- Discussions that are heading into the probability of becoming a flame war will be locked.
- Repeat offenders will be forced to find another community.
- Anti-Zionism is ok. Anti-Semitism is not.
- Whataboutism is for toddlers. Try to grow up.
- Posting articles about current events is encouraged. Posting the same story from 20 different sources is not.
- Posting an article purely for the purpose of saying "Look what monsters they are" is discouraged unless it can generate an honest discussion. This is probably the most difficult rule to follow.
- No calling anyone a terrorist.
- No YouTube links. Some of us can read.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Ahh yes, because Israel is always the aggressor; and Hamas, and its precursor organizations were 100% the victims every time.
No matter who attacks first in any given case, the Israeli government is committing genocide on a people already put in an open air prison, killing at least double (by their own likely low estimate) the number of civilians, mostly children, as Hamas terrorists.
And that's not even counting the deaths they're causing via keeping food, water, medication and medical treatment from the people.
This isn't Israel Vs Hamas. It's the Israeli government perpetrating a laundry list of human rights violations on the people of Gaza using Hamas as a completely disingenuous pretext.
So you are essentially saying Hamas can do whatever they want on the basis that they aren't Israel.
Yikes.
Nope. I am categorically against terrorism under any and all circumstances.
You can condemn the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government. In fact, it's morally and ethically reprehensible not to.
Good. In the future just say something along these lines so that people aren't getting the mistaken impression you are pro-hamas. Sadly, there are quite a few people on this site that description applies to, and believe me, you do not want to get mixed up for being one of those guys, like boomer or core.
No. It's not reasonable to demand that every criticism of the genocide mentions Hamas. Just like you'd never agree to add "and the IDF are awful too" every time you condemn Hamas.
No reasonable person automatically infers "I like Hamas" from any criticism of the genocidal actions of the Israeli government.
Without a doubt fewer than you think/pretend to think.
Like with Trump, a Zionist saying that is usually indicative of a lie or, at best, a distortion of the truth is coming or directly preceded those words.
Luckily, nobody arguing in good faith has ever made that mistake since I've never said anything positive about the terrorist group Hamas.
I'm not a Zionist.
This is a big issue with people who have just joined the movement. They think everybody who lacks their passion is an enemy, without realizing that some of us have been here quite awhile and have discovered that accusing everybody we don't like of being a Zionist hurts more Palestinian people than it helps.
Take the criticism and do better and stop being a narcissist. This is about liberating the people, not you feeling good.
Good. Could you stop being a defeatist and counterfactual doomer, then?
I've been Pro-Palestine since I first learned about the conflict in the mid-90s. Pro-BSD since I first heard about BSD a couple decades ago. I'd hardly call that "just joined".
That part is true. Dismissing something that would be a complete game changer by claiming that it would make zero difference hurts the cause as well, though. Some would argue much more.
Right back at you, doomer.
Where the fuck did THAT come from??
Vehemently disagreeing with your incorrect take does not equal anything even remotely approaching something that could be mistaken for narcissism in good faith.
Could have fooled me with your doomer nonsense.
I don't believe you know what a doomer is, and your insistence on calling people that after being called out for hurling accusations of Zionism leads me to believe you are just using the word to mean Zionist without actually having to reflect on why you and I are at odds despite the fact that we hold the same beliefs.
It may fundamentally be an issue of behavior.
I'm going by this definition:
Your claim would qualify as such pathological pessimism.
Nobody except someone who's either a Zionist defending the weapons shipments or extremely pessimistic would make such a wild claim in good faith.
Nope, see above.
Perhaps because you keep ridiculously insisting that one of the important steps to stop what we both abhor wouldn't matter? That would tend to put people with similar beliefs and/or goals at odds with each other.
True. I'm fast running out of reasons to believe a word of what you say, since you're being so obtuse that it's almost a given that it's willful by now.
Well I'm not a pessimist, I feel no sense of helplessness and in response to claims of aimlessness, I actually think that kind of is what my problem with your words have been. Aimless and unhelpful, mostly to the Palestinian people.
This is my issue. You are allowed to just lie about others and pretend its saving lives, while you would never grant me access to that same behavior. This is the narcissism I was talking about.
I have done no such thing at any point.
Still doesn't make the least bit of sense. Just leave me alone, please.
You accused me of being both a Zionist and a doomer, with zero regard to the truth value of those accusations.
But yes, I think our conversation has reached its natural conclusion. Best of luck to you.
@[email protected] can't go down two posts about Palestine without calling someone a Zionist. It's impossible to have any discourse with these people because they aren't interested in facts as much as they are interested in grandstanding.
That's completely false. I might sometimes call out someone who's acting like a Zionist but isn't one, since I'm not a mind reader, but yours is a completely unfair accusation designed to discredit me and make yourself look better in comparison.
Stereotype much?
Doesn't it hurt your brain to project that much?
@[email protected] I'm not the one going around calling everyone Zionists (or Zionist adjacent). Or any epiteth really. I don't care about how I look. I'm more frustrated by the fact that I spent so much time arguing with you when facts or evidence clearly mean nothing. You're a pathetic troll.
Neither am I. You ARE the one that keeps insisting, based on realistically useless nuclear weapons and a single arms order that had been signed but not yet delivered, one of the most important things that self-declared Zionist Joe Biden could do wouldn't do anything to stop or even slow the genocide. That kind of defeatist rhetoric is often used by the enemies of progress to discourage others to ask for improvements, which is why I suspected that you were making excuses for Biden because you're a Zionist yourself rather than stubbornly clinging to an utterly bizarre claim for no reason.
No, you just unfairly accuse them of arguing in bad faith and/or with no understanding, which is MUCH more insulting than being called a name you don't like.
There you go again with the projection. If you're so tired of engaging with me, why tag me in your false accusations so that I get a notification even though you're replying to someone else's comment?
Nah, that would be you. More projection.
This you?
That's just from today. I've seen you do it in every Palestine thread.
Apparently you CAN read. Now that you went back and read my links you feel like you have some kind of argument. Those links were from 3 seconds of googling (which is more you've ever done since your dad jizzed inside your mother). I could spend more time researching stats on Israel's armament stockpile but I know it won't matter because numbers & figures are irrelevant. And yea, when I say "you people" I mean cum buckets that like to grandstand on social media for brownie virtue points.
Bolded the part you apparently didn't read.
First of all, no. That's simply not true.
Secondly, even if it was, the people who disagree with my pro-Palestine views will tend to be arguing for Israel being in the right, which naturally leads to a higher concentration of Zionists than elsewhere.
You might as well complain about how I sometimes call people who call Biden "the best president ever" neoliberals. Because they are.
So it's ok to base your entire argument on irrelevant and/or misleading data if you found it fast? 🙄
Hardy har har. That's some Faux News level shit in both factuality and funniness 🤦
To how much of a stockpile the IDF has? Wtf are you smoking? Do you think arms capabilities are independent of reality? Come to think of it yeah, it very much sounds like you do.
What happened to never calling people names, Professor Aboveitall? 🙄
Yeah, there's no point in grandstanding for likes this many comments in. Everyone else will have long since lost interest in our bickering.
The only reason I'm still wasting my time on your nonsense is an unfortunate combination of stubbornness and poor impulse control. What's YOUR excuse?
You can bold whatever you want, but you still felt the need to throw the label in --as is the way shown by our sanctified fathers of the left at ml. The options it seems are either pessimist or Zionist. God forbid anyone else question the sacred texts of the oppressed. We shall not stray from the path. Now go back to gobbling up that Hamas cum. Gobble gobble slurp. :P
As one of two possible reasons why anyone would ever make a claim that stupid, except for pure trolling.
For making that SPECIFIC ridiculous claim, yes. There's simply no logic behind making such a claim if you're neither.
Fuck off with that strawman bullshit. It was about your SPECIFIC claim from the start. Nobody ever demanded lockstep agreement like you're implying.
Yeah because that's a totally normal thing to say to someone who's never uttered an approving word about Hamas 🙄
Whether or not you're a Zionist, you're sure as hell using some of their favorite arguments to deflect criticism
I suspect this person is like some of the users on .ml (core and boomer, for instance) who are clearly being paid by somebody to do what they are doing.
Why pay anyone when you can have children go online and parrot anything you want without anyone fact checking them? They're just kids. They're all fucking kids.
I'm starting to think about you're a troll at this point. The amount of pivoting in your posts is unreal. Just like the way you ignored my two other links in the post I referred you to.