But that's what I'm trying to talk about; I am pretty sure, through my own experience (and all the discussions on forums ofc) on this, that it does. When you defoliate too radically, the plant will try to recompensate, That recompensation will stall new growth of buds and instead focus on building the "energy reserves" in the leaves. This is why the leaves on the buds will start to grow out of proportion, as yours have. That doesn't always happen, if you can properly manage RH and temp, as the plant won't be trying to create more leaves to cope. Yours is quite full though, so the RH must be up, so the plant is trying to perspire a lot, as more area is required for perspiration the higher the RH is. So it's focusing on making bigger leaves

I’ve never heard of this before, hydro and aeroponics grow larger leaves due to a variety of reasons, and they create MORE leaves, not larger leaves when you stress them to that degree, but they will also likely herm at that point too. And I didn’t even take off 10% of the canopy, so I don’t know why you would think this could be an overdefoliation, people have taken 50% off and nothing, but 30% is the rule of thumb.

My humdifier turns off at 50 rh and the fan kicks on when the rh gets over 55. I’ve got 2 fans, one above and below canopy. It is really dry here, usually don’t need to worry about over humidity. I still fill it every day if I feel like it.

The first image also makes it look darker down there than it is, can I remove more, yes, is it detrimental, no but mold is always a risk, did I remove too much, no. I would love to be able to do more tucking though, pushing the fan leaves down would make a world of difference in appearances I would imagine. From what I’ve seen heard, is when the bracts aren’t swollen is when you should maybe start worrying you’re doing too much.

[–] Dasus 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm sorry but, but your plants are literally wilting in the second picture, which you say went better?

And just because you've never heard of something... it can't be true? The plants want to perspire. If they can't, they'll keep trying. Since your tent is packed that tight, no matter how much they perspire, they're not actually losing any water, so they desperately make new avenues for "breathing".

Plants do breathe you know. You need gas exchange.

I'm saying it could have been overdefoliation in the case that you'd have pretty much removed all fan leaves. That makes a plant grow in a similar manner.

But now I'm pretty sure it's a too high RH with the tightly packed tent. They just can't really breathe. I've not claimed you have it too dry at any point? That's exactly what my point relies on. Your plants can't perspire, because they're constantly in contact with each other. So they create more and more leaves, and no buds. In honesty, it's a combination of all those things, and all I can do is tell of my experiences and hope they will help you. But you seem a tad confrontational and not that receptive to tips that you can ignore if you want. Like your sort of sly implication that because I've grown for 20 years, I wouldn't be growing hydro? (I have also tested aero on a small grow but too much of a hassle for the benefit to change to my bigger sets) Because I'm some old fart, not "up to date"? I'm a bit over 30 and started with hydroponics, because it's not a new invention. Been building my own 18 years.

I'm honestly just trying to troubleshoot a little bit. Unless you think those buds are the best you can do? Because I don't think so. You seem knowledgeable, but there's also intuition which comes from just grows and grows and grows, and my intuition is telling me that you have too many plants too close and they have a hard time breathing well. The RH you state seem fine enough, but can you put your hand in the middle of the canopy without it getting wet? Because if not, that's plants "sweating", meaning the exact problem I've said, be it's reason RH or not.

[–] SchmidtGenetics 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

I'm sorry but, but your plants are literally wilting in the second picture, which you say went better?

Wilting? I mangled them trying to get a second trellis on since they were getting too dense for their stems. You’re diagnosing from an image without knowing anything of the scenario.

I’m saying I’ve read a lot of grow journals and studies, and that’s nothing that I’ve come across is horticulture either, it’s not rooted in science.

And just because you've never heard of something... it can't be true? The plants want to perspire. If they can't, they'll keep trying. Since your tent is packed that tight, no matter how much they perspire, they're not actually losing any water, so they desperately make new avenues for "breathing".

So if the RH is in check, more transpiration means more water use and more nutrient uptake, larger leaves more energy for the plant to absorb. What’s the issue with any of that? You seem to thinking it’s detrimental, why is it? It’s not wasting energy making these leaves. In other cases maybe.

You keep saying these have no buds, that could be just as much genetic or pheno differences, but that’s also not that the case here.

Trouble shoot what? I started my first message off telling you my school of thought, most of this comes from horticulture and comparative studies, and most people get pissy when science contradicts their anecdotal been doing it for decades. Theres no reason to remove the foliage.

Is it the best I can do? Nope, but that’s why we experiment and grow with each one. Could I get some denser looking buds by culling it more, absolutely, but I would rather have 300g of good bud and 200 grams of mediocre higher THC bud than just 400g of good bud.

So to someone shooting for the 200g of top shelf, of course mine wouldn’t look as good or as picturesque, but I’ve got far more weed that’ll probably average a higher total THC content, but it won’t look as pretty or dense or large.

Edit, I just shoved my hand down on 3 places, now it’s sticky, and no moisture came off. We done here?

[–] Dasus 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

"We done here"?

I'm not arguing with you about anything. I'm pointing out things I notice, and saying things I think. As pointed out, images do not give the whole story. But they do some of it. If you think those are the best buds you can make and you like it, I have absolutely no problem with that. Nor am I saying mine are better. I'm saying there's always room for improvement for everyone.

I'm just noting that it's very common in the growing community to aim for thick colas instead of loose-leaved branches of sticky material.

I was exaggerating a bit with the hand getting actually wet, but there are usually drops of dew on some of the plants, and if you haven't, well that's great, innit? I had a friend who was obsessed with pruning though, poor grower — meticulous, but poor — and he waaay over-defoliated his plants (often even because he was looking to dry and smoke some, so reaally really went overboard with it. He had a decent light, but ended getting only bud-like flowers, not proper nugs. Yours are proper, but they have just remind the slightest bit of buds like that, which is why I suggested the defoliation as a cause initially. I may have been mistaken. As I keep saying. I'm not arguing anything. Just telling you my opinions, because I'm not there to know what it looks like there, so perhaps something I say can influence what you perceive, or you can tell me you don't perceive a thing — as you have, thank you — and it'll amend my understanding, even though not much, again, because of the limitation of me not knowing much about the grow.

That probably means that it's a very different genotype from what I grow, and that's totally fine. I know there are a couple of strains that make really airy buds, but to this extent I've seen buds similar-ish (but way worse than yours) due to the same sort of growing style. Might be I'm mistaken, might be I'm not.

I'm just discussing, not arguing anything. The thing I think could be improved is the size of the colas. Surely you'd rather have a thick canopy of colas then leaves? But, like, again, completely up to you.

Hate to trace back so far but to change the subject a bit... you didn't like the purples on my buds then? (I'm hyped because I rarely get a grow so suitably with this strain I can open my windows and cool the entire room. It's not a purple strain, just has anthocyanin genetics)

[–] SchmidtGenetics 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Okay, I’m gonna apologize here, after reflection and rereading, I do think you come across with good intentions, although the advice was unwarranted and I explained my thought process.

It actually seems like you have a very similar thought process as me, let the plant be, unless it tells you otherwise. If I’m missing something, the advice would be nice, but from everything I’ve done and my conditions, it’s not telling me boo. I only had one fan a couple grows ago, lost some colas, couldn’t say if the fan could have stopped it though, but very well could have.

I do know about how to check for moisture by moving a leaf that’s touching another, if there’s not enough airflow or a transpiration issue, there will likely be a pool of water where they touched. This obviously is conducive to mold.

I won’t respond to, but will address your other comment, that jives with what I’ve seen and said. It creates more foliage, not larger, maybe in specific situations that may be possible where there just isn’t enough growth sites that it’s forced to do so though.

My last grow I was treated to both sides of the phenotype scale for the same genetics. One was dense and short, the other was tall with dense popcorn buds. So a picture doesn’t always tell you much, those were strange genetics though, fasciated and everything.

And yes sorry, beautiful plants, I was rewarded with some beautiful purples myself last grow as well, can’t say if they were prone to purple, but the nighttime temps definitely brought out the anthocyanins on my end. I find it interesting that it seemed to be one the ones more exposed to the light turned more purple myself, but that’s also because of my canopy density.

The wife loves the house cold at night, and it was winter, so -30 at night, but the lung room would dip to 15cish.

[–] Dasus 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

No need to apologise. No offense meant one way or another.

I let the plant be unlesss needed, except for the part when I purposefully prune a bunch of small branches a week before flowering/during first week. But I don't defoliate in the sense of just removing mass. When older leaves start going yellow I might give them a bit of tug and help it out but that's about it.

Yeah it's always bit shooting in the dark when discussing grows online, as pictures can really mislead.

You seem to got it down for you, and that's what matters. You clearly understand the business well enough.

Yeah, it's also nice sleeping in a cool breeze.

The freezes let off last month in Finland (no wait previous now) so I got to keep the window open a bit more. Too cold before that. :F

I was merely speculating and discussing. Thank you for understanding.

And if you have one somewhere easily available, i wouldn't mind taking a look at your aero. DIY mostly, I presume? (all the best are) as in if you have an image without the plants or smth but nvm, no need.

[–] SchmidtGenetics 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

So we differ there a little, (this is carried over from my old lights CREE cob, still use them for veg tent), I do abuse my ladies during veg, but I try not to remove material. This is to get the 2 plants to stretch out with a flat short canopy, this can also be achieved by letting it go tall and supercropping it over. Week before flower I give it another round of abuse to recover before flowering a week later.

Thats only about 6” from trellis to the aero chamber. And taken around said time. I have carpal tunnel, so I can only do so much so fast, my 21 day trim was days 17-20.

https://imgur.com/a/juY7miN

Week 1 time lapse. I wasn’t expecting them to grow 36 damn inches during flower, but I have the light to put high and crank her up, and they kept climbing and climbing. If the ones weren’t so dense, I would be more worried about them light stretching, but my Photone was saying I wasn’t under lighting them, and they aren’t showing light stress, so yolo?

Any leaf issues on colour I would wager on me “transplanting” I had 4 plants (2 clones of last grow fasciation yadda yadda) I had to rip the roots apart to move the one over. I will say I am maybe heavy on the FR, I need to read back up on that, I think I turned it off last grow at day 21. I need to log that type of shit god damn it.

I have another 8 weeks before I think of planting outside, I need to get my starters going for my garden this week. No bus, all personal use and gifts, the genetics part of my user name is for when I decide to experiment with colloidal silver or something. Dream big?

Yeah long story short, it’s the cheap version of the fancy system that nasa figured out. NASA figured out ideal water droplet size for nutrient uptake, a perfect system will spray just enough for a water droplet to start forming on the bottom of the root stock and start to drip off (zero waste). That requires city water pressure type pressure, so $150 pump (all this x2 for both tents) and a $180 bladder tank. So this just atomizes the droplets the best it can, HPA vs my Low Pressure Aeroponics.

I’ve got an album tour of my little slice, it’s got plants, but it shows all the insides and gear I use, no part list or anything like that though. Anyone half handy could probably figure it out.

https://imgur.com/a/Dagn0O5

[–] Dasus 1 points 8 months ago

Those roots are looking mighty fine.

That's some dedication to the craft though, basically I have "the same" setup, except you've got it significantly improved. Mine's a hydro (with a rather poor drip at the moment, I need to get new pipes and remake the thing) and I don't have UV or infrared.

Basically I have the lazy man's version of your setup. :D

Yeah long story short, it’s the cheap version of the fancy system that nasa figured out. NASA figured out ideal water droplet size for nutrient uptake, a perfect system will spray just enough for a water droplet to start forming on the bottom of the root stock and start to drip off (zero waste). That requires city water pressure type pressure, so $150 pump (all this x2 for both tents) and a $180 bladder tank. So this just atomizes the droplets the best it can, HPA vs my Low Pressure Aeroponics.

Yeah I can definitely see the difference from the roots. Very nice.

Took me a while to respond, wanted to really view the photos on my PC instead of just on mobile.

Idk where you live, but I used to dream of growing outside, and I did, but I live so far up North it's just not worth it when I don't have my own yard to grow on. If it was legal and I had my own yard, I'd fucking love to. Or even illegal as now, but had my own yard. I've grown out of the phase where I went around planting guerrilla grows in the nearby fields and whatnot. :D It did sometimes give a small crop of something I'd use for extracts, but yeah.. here in Finland I've managed much better with indoors. Which is a shame. I'd like a fking greenhouse full!

Oh right and yeah, I supercrop mine as well, that's how I fill out my tent. I have a 1x1m tent and I use two plants there in dripfeeds, very very simple hydros, then I start man-handling when about the 5th 6th pair of leaves starts coming to. I don't really top them in the traditional sense, as cutting something away isn't necessary, just break the top node under your fingers gently while bending it. Supercropping, aye. That'll break the apical dominance, resulting in the plant "bushifying". Then I let them grow for a couple of weeks and then trim the lowest and smallest branches from below and put them in 1212.

[–] Dasus 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I’m saying I’ve read a lot of grow journals and studies, and that’s nothing that I’ve come across is horticulture either, it’s not rooted in science.

Sorry, skipped this bit.

Do a bit of your own science? Grow say, some autoflower in the side if you have the room and keep radically defoliating it. Not compeltely bald, but a lot. See how the buds turn out. If you want a control, use same seed on another similar pot next to it, but without any defoliation.

And also, yes, it's definitely based in actual science as well.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/defoliation

The defoliation stress encountered by a forage plant depends on (a) intensity of defoliation; (b) the type of tissue removed, whether meristematic and physiologic age; (c) frequency of defoliation, whether in discrete well-spaced events or continuous removal; (d) timing of defoliation; and (e) whether stresses or competition have occurred before, during, or after the defoliation (Richards, 1993). Removal of young, photosynthetically active leaves affects the plant more, in terms of photosynthesis, than loss of older, shaded leaves of a lower photosynthetic capacity (Gold and Caldwell, 1989a,b, 1990).

Root growth stops quickly after defoliation and fine roots may die (Luo et al., 1995; Jarvis and MacDuff, 1989). Respiration and nutrient uptake also decline quickly after defoliation. These responses, however, may be tempered by the age of the plant and availability of resources. Root growth is also affected by the frequency and severity of defoliation. Alcordo et al. (1991) clipped stargrass (Cynodon nlemfuensis Vanderyst var. nlemfuensis) at several plant and stubble height combinations and observed that root mass accumulation was reduced by up to 97% with severe defoliation compared with an unclipped control.

These immediate responses to defoliation are followed by the long-term process of recovering a positive C balance, metabolic adjustment of the remaining organs, and rebuilding the photosynthetic area (Richards, 1993)

Those are pretty much exactly the reasons I prune only once and then I only take branches / older leaves and then I give the plant roughly a week to recuperate before putting it into flowering (a source of stress)

It's too long to paste in total but an interesting read well worth it, despite not being strictly about cannabis but defoliation in plants in general.