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MHGA acting just like MAGA! There's nothing peaceful about Pro-Hamas protestors!
(www.jewishpress.com)
this post was submitted on 16 Jan 2024
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Political Exiles
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I can do analogies:
Your neighbor across the street regularly shoots at your house, sometimes they even kill a member of your family. This goes on for literally decades, you try building a wall, you try bullet-proofing your house (read iron-dome), etc., you even try to have a two house solution talk from which the neighbor (Abbas) walks away from in 2008. After decades of this you build a wall, and the neighbors climbs it, and murder a huge group of your family while wearing a body cam and broadcasts it to the cheers of their household (UNRWA and Palestinians, sources available). Shit has to end, so you finally go into their house to take their guns, anyone whose fired those guns, etc.).
That's what's going on.
Israel has ignored tens of thousands of war crimes from the Palestinians (read, every single rocket attack meets the criteria of a war-crime), suicide bombers, just an endless parade of intentionally targeting civilians with terrorist attacks by the elected government of Gaza (who has majority support today and would win an election today in Gaza AND the West Bank--unseating Abbas).
There is an obligation to defend the citizens of their country. What they're doing is defensive. They've tried everything else for decades and I've yet to hear a realistic alternative to the current campaign. They've done massive damage to Hamas' infrastructure, destroyed much of the tunnel systems in the secured areas, interrupted supply lines, killed commanders, gathered intelligence, just the other day they destroyed 100 rocket launchers. You know that 20k+ dead figure that comes literally from Hamas. Well, it includes ~8,500 Hamas terrorists, and ~1,000 terrorists from various other groups that shelter behind civilians in Gaza.
Palestinians absolutely have a right to exist, and no Israel did not "straight up stole the land", that's super reductive and disingenuous. Israel agrees Palestinian Arabs have a right to exist too, that's why they make up 21% of Israel's citizens. The Palestinians have turned down a two-state solution FIVE times. And even before Israel was recognized, the Palestinian Jews agreed to 20% of the Palestine Mandate, while also agreeing to 80% of the Palestine Mandate go to the Palestinian Arabs. And again, that's just one time the Arabs said no, and continued to do so.
It's NOT a genocide, clearly.
There are war-crimes that have happened (many on both sides, I'll condemn them any day). I'll readily find common ground with you there. But Israel is not systematically exterminating 21% of its citizens, nor the West Bank, nor the millions of Palestinians in Jordan or Egypt, etc. Calling it a genocide diminishes and devalues the term. It does significant damage to a charge of genocide. Invoking genocide is just a politicisation and should not be tolerated. Israel is rightfully trying to prevent another body cam livestream of the Gaza Government murdering civilians at music festivals, and kibbutz, etc. They're also trying to get back the infant and other hostages the terrorist government of Gaza has taken.
Also, check the history, the people of Gaza ELECTED Hamas on a platform of genocide. It's literally their founding purpose: the destruction of Isreal and the Jews. That's who still runs Gaza, that's who has majority support in Gaza, that's even who aid goes to in Gaza (which they then steal for anti-Israeli propaganda).
For your analogy to work, I would have had to have owned the house across the street until the neighbor claimed it for religious reasons. They would have also had to have taken all the houses on the block until we all lived together in a fraction of the space.
They have absolutely stolen the land. Look at how the borders have changed since the creation of Israel. Unless you're implying that Palestinians were on board to be displaced. Or that it's fine and normal for Israelis to build and expand into Palestinian land like they've been doing.
The citizens who voted Hamas into power are to blame but not all the current residents. Hamas is a dictatorship and outing them is impossible when both sides (Hamas and the Israeli government) are actively suppressing your ability to flourish. Are you gonna blame North Koreans for what their government does?
We're 70 years past this excuse for terrorism, which I'll happily debate with you separately if you want but it's just a distraction from the truth, which is that Israel is defending itself, is not committing genocide, has a right to do so, and is a state recognized by the UN that is defending itself from terrorists. Trying to hinge the points you made on “stolen land“ leads to "this terrorism is okay because...", I don't think you're making that argument--but if we debate it I can get there in an honest discussion.
Generations have come and gone now who have grown up in Israel and Gaza (also why there has to be a special, unique ONLY to Palestinians definition of refugee, otherwise there'd only be a couple hundred thousand Palestinian refugees left by the UNHRC definition that the rest of the world and people in the world fall under).
Also, for added nuance and because it's directly related, read about the 900,000 Jews whose land was stolen and who were exiled post-48 as revenge by the Arab and Muslim countries, here's a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I'm extremely familiar with the creation of Israel, the Nakba, and even before that pre-Israel, and before that, including the fall of the Ottoman empire and earlier. I'm happy to debate with you about it. There's plenty of ugly on both sides, even back then. And stealing land is a super reductive and dishonest claim. A half-truth to make a point doesn't make that point valid.
This dictatorship is the most popular group among Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza. They have overwhelming majority support. If you held an election today, especially since they spiked in popularity with all the support from the residents on Oct 7th, they'd easily win re-election.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
Ok, let's forget about 70 years ago and talk about the illegal settlements Israelis have made on Palestinian land in recent history and the continued border expansion. That's land theft unless you subscribe to Putin's "it was Russia once so we're taking it back" mentality.
It's not self defense to bomb civilians, tell them to move, and then bomb their caravan to safety. It's also not self defense to kill journalists.
Just to clarify, you want to legitimize and apologize for terrorism and targeting civilians over land claims, yes or no?
Just to clarify, you want me to defend a stance I'm not taking, yes or no?
This is getting old, I asked you what your stance was, you're being intentionally obtuse. If you're just trolling, let me know and I won't feed you anymore.
If you're serious, clarify, the point to which your'e responding to with continual talk about land theft, is that I said it's not justification for terrorism. You continue to respond with a different claim about land theft. I ask you to clarify your stance. And this is the last time I"m going to ask you:
Do you believe that land theft is justification for terrorism? It's a simple yes or no question, if you can't answer it--that's an answer itself and all I need to know.
You did not ask me what my stance was. You took what I said, added your own shit, and asked me if I'd defend it. That's not arguing in good faith - if anyone is trolling here, it's you. Not sure why you conflated with "it's land theft to take over land that's not yours" with "I support terrorism"
No need to reply, I'm done with talking to you. Enjoy your self-imposed exile!
LOL, it's rough getting called on your bullshit. I like that there's a written record above, and that we're not in a MHGA friendly community where you can have shit removed or muted. Bye bye troll.
EDIT: most notable is that you can't condemn terrorism. LMFAO, just wow.
I can and do condemn terrorism, dip shit. I'm just not playing into your bait and you're so mad about it lol
Have fun jacking off to your ego
[Edit] Just to clarify, you think indiscriminately bombing civilians is the appropriate response to an act of terrorism, yes or no? Oh am I putting words in your mouth? Too bad I am asking you to clarify your stance! And you won't say that bombing civilians is bad! Checkmate!
Bombing civilians is bad!
Israel is not doing that. They're trying to destroy Hamas, who collocates to use civilians as human shields. For your enlightenment, this is a war-crime. Civilian deaths are one of Hama's most effective tactics. They've created many terrorist sympathizers and radicalized a lot of low information kids like yourself! Civilian deaths are on Hamas and their supporters who shelter and support them.
And yes, if this is the first war you've ever seen or studied, then you might not know that collateral damage happens. Definitely don't learn about either of the world wars (spoiler alert: massive collateral damage). Compounding that is the fact that Gaza is the densest urban fighting seen in our lifetime. In fantasy hatred land, maybe you don't understand that this actually significantly impacts any conflict there. However, if Israel were indiscriminately bombing civilians, then there'd be a LOT more than ~10,000 casualties (literally magnitudes more). This kind of stupid nonsense is exactly why a non-echo chamber environment is necessary, so you can't pretend that there is intentional bombing of civilians—regardless of what your Hamas allies tell you. And so getting called out on that nonsense can’t get muted or banned in order to shield the Hamas recruits from reading dissent.
Lmao I'm looking forward your next essay about the WMDs in civilian camps, how Israel needs to bomb them, and 20 civilian deaths are fine as long as 1 militant dies in the process. Enjoy your safe space
I think you probably need to go back to your safe space and echo chambers. I happily tolerate your nonsense and even insult. That's why your posts are here. That's why you're not banned. That's why you're not muted. You're even free to make posts, as is anyone else even if they duper disagree with me.
If it makes you feel good venting and attacking me, go for it. I'd probably mute you for doing it to other users if it was too uncivil, but say what you want to me.
An echo chamber or safe space wouldn't let you express a dissenting view or even let you be a member. I even tolerate your low-grade trolling.
If you're looking for a ban, only hate speech or advocating for violence and genocide is going to do that.