this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2024

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Yo guys tryna understand (self.vegan)

submitted 11 months ago by muntedcrocodile to c/[email protected]

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But why be vegan? For what purpose? I dont get it please explain?

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[–] muntedcrocodile -1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

So why not just buy products that dont cause that harm.

Eg what about chickens u keep in ur backyard why cant u eat those eggs?

What if ya keep ur own livesstock and butcher it yourself?

[–] ivylovesbirds 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Those animals still suffer greatly.

Backyard chickens are bred to produce eggs faster than their bodies can naturally handle, leading to health problems and a much shorter lifespan. When they stop laying eggs, they’re almost always sent to slaughter because people don’t want to take care of a sick chicken for years. They have to be purchased from meat companies in the first place, essentially supporting them.

Animals don’t care if you or some worker slits their throat. There is no humane way to take the life of someone who doesn’t want to be killed, and again, those animals have to be purchased from meat companies in the first place.

Besides, it’s way easier to cook fucking delicious vegan food than to kill an animal you’ve grown attached to.

What stops you from trying vegan, OP?

[–] muntedcrocodile 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If its faster than thier bodies can natrualy handle why do human engineered chickens live just as long as their wuld ancstors?

Not all chickens are meat birds or even purchased. For instance the chickens we have are some amolgomation of variouse species we initialy baught like 5 hens are adopted a rooster like 20years ago all subsequent chickens we bred ourselves.

Chickens dont ever stop laying unless they are about to die, as they get older thier laying season gets shorter and at some point they lay an egg every few days instead of every day. They slow the egg laying rate in terms of what their body can natrualy handle.

Most of our hens get old get sick and die of natrual causes.

I would argue that taking a life in many cases is more humane than letting an animal suffer through some terminal illness. Many animals are not intelegent enough to not want to be killed let alone even have an understanding of self. And im sure ur gonna bring up the whole instincks thing and instincks are a product of evolution what is most benificial for a genetic sequence to persist the beat stratagy for genetic persistence is to join into a symbiotic relationship with humans. It can be argued that animald and wheet and all the other things we use for food are farming us just as much as we are farming them. If it wasnt for us humans eating millions of aninals every day those animals would not exist and is a good life cut short not better than no life at all?

Its also not easyer to eat vegan food for the following reasons:

It's way more expensive to get the same required nutrients
The production of vegan food actually kills more animals per square kilomerter than traditional livestock (but no vegan ive ever met gives a single fuck about the lives of insects and anphibions cos they arent cute and fluffy)
It doesn't taste deliciouse have u ever eaten a good piece of meat there is scientificly no way to reproduce that flavour and texture without meat (the impossible bs gets close to mince but it still fails and produces more co2 per kg.
A majority of planet earths farmland cant support growing food crops but it can support grazing animals.

[–] ivylovesbirds 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

If its faster than thier bodies can natrualy handle why do human engineered chickens live just as long as their wuld ancstors?

They don’t. Here’s a very clear example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broiler#Welfare_issues

I take care of a flock of over 100 rescued egg laying chickens who are suffering due to medical conditions related to their breed.

Even if what you said was true, egg laying chickens are typically slaughtered at 1-2 years when they can live up to 8 years, healthily, in the wild.

Not all chickens are meat birds or even purchased. For instance the chickens we have are some amolgomation of variouse species we initialy baught like 5 hens are adopted a rooster like 20years ago all subsequent chickens we bred ourselves.

You are the exception, and even you mention that you still bought them.

Chickens dont ever stop laying unless they are about to die, as they get older thier laying season gets shorter and at some point they lay an egg every few days instead of every day. They slow the egg laying rate in terms of what their body can natrualy handle.

This isn’t always true, and besides, when they slow down is when most farmers slaughter them.

Most of our hens get old get sick and die of natrual causes.

Again, you are the exception. Very few others do this as it is not profitable. Animals are not eaten after they’ve grown old and sick.

I would argue that taking a life in many cases is more humane than letting an animal suffer through some terminal illness…

There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn’t want to be killed. Watch this and tell me it’s a good life.

Most animals live a life of suffering before they’re slaughtered at only a tiny fraction of their natural age. This isn’t about terminal illness.

If it wasnt for us humans eating millions of aninals every day those animals would not exist

Animals that haven’t yet been born into existence do not feel anything. Animals that have been born do. This feels like a pro-life argument spun into something anti-vegan.

Regarding your points why not to be vegan:

I can’t speak to where you’re from, but in my country this is simply untrue. Tofu, lentils, beans, seitan, tempeh and more are all less expensive than meat in protein per dollar. In countries where this isn’t true, the cost of meat and dairy is paid for in subsidies by tax payers. There is no rational reason for a piece of an animal to cost less than a pint of blueberries considering the massive resource cost it takes to raise that animal.
You’ve been lied to with misinformation. If we look at soy, for example, the VAST majority is used to feed livestock. In fact, the vast majority of plant farming — period — is used to feed livestock. This alone makes animal agriculture far more destructive, and we’re not even touching on emissions, water use, water pollution, ocean acidification, etc. Vegans do care about insects, amphibians, and fish being killed, and I practice veganic farming which aims to reduce or eliminate ALL animal deaths. Do non-vegans care about insects or amphibians being killed? I’d argue that no, they don’t, because large-scale animal agriculture relies on industrial pesticides and monocropping.
Like learning how to cook with meat, learning how to cook vegan takes time until it’s good. I’m completely satisfied and I’m a foodie. I make my own cheese and seitan and it’s delicious.
This is a symptom of our broken farming system in the first place. I wholeheartedly agree that we’re destroying our soil and that something needs to be done, but increasing the scale of mass animal agriculture isn’t it. Luckily, if the world adopted a plant-based diet we’d reduce agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares, and if you recall earlier, the vast majority of plant crops are used to feed animals.

I put together a website with vegan myths a while ago. These touch on some of your points and are well (and diversely) sourced. https://crow.cafe/vegan-myths/

Remember: the meat and dairy industry has a vested interest in lying to us to increase their profits at any and all costs. This is not about me “winning” an argument, it’s about sharing what I’ve learned as someone who used to be an adamant carnivore.

Thanks for the chat and all the best!

[–] muntedcrocodile -1 points 11 months ago

They don’t. Here’s a very clear example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broiler#Welfare_issues

so here we are talking about egg birds then u send me to a wikepedia page for meat birds thay uave nothing to do with the discussion we are having. Yes everyone on this planet who isnt a complete moron knows how badly factory farmed chicken is it aint news but for what we are discussing it a strawman.

I take care of a flock of over 100 rescued egg laying chickens who are suffering due to medical conditions related to their breed.

I call bull prove it

Even if what you said was true, egg laying chickens are typically slaughtered at 1-2 years when they can live up to 8 years, healthily, in the wild.

So u would eat the eggs of a hen that was allowed to live its full life? Up to 8 in the wild huh mine that are very much domesticated regularly live to that age.

You are the exception, and even you mention that you still bought them.

We baught like 5 years ago purly for the genetics and have been crossbreeding from there since. Should i have not purchased them should i have let them go to a regular egg farm? Or is not supporting the industry more important than the lives of my chickens?

Again, you are the exception. Very few others do this as it is not profitable. Animals are not eaten after they’ve grown old and sick.

Ok im the exception does that mean the eggs from my hens are vegan and i can eat em?

There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn’t want to be killed. Watch this and tell me it’s a good life.

Didnt whatch it but i assume its showing a bunch of meat birds crammed into a shed with about the size of an A4 paper per chicken with fucked legs health issues etc. Hence i keep my own chickens who do live a good life. U say kill someone chickens and almost all animals for that matter are not someones they dont even have self awareness go test it with a mirror urself, they arguably have less conciousness than chagpt and i dont see anyone protesting for the rights of a literal rock.

Animals that haven’t yet been born into existence do not feel anything. Animals that have been born do. This feels like a pro-life argument spun into something anti-vegan.

The animals i kill go from feeling safe and happy to feeling nothing without even realising it so they dont feel a thing.

Wait are u pro life or pro choice? If one is to be vegan then one is to not to eat an egg and i would assume killing a fertilised chicken egg is worse (i did that 6 times today for breakfast but as u said "Animals that haven’t yet been born into existence do not feel anything") how can u beleive that and symultaniously believe in pro choice? How can u not eat a chicken egg yet kill a human egg? This leads to 2 possibilities 1: its fine to eat chicken eggs if the chicken had the ability to concent. or 2: you must be pro life and agree with the far right dogma. What is it?

Btw I like the dotpoints makes things very efficient.

i believe u said deliciouse in ur original comment and unfortunstly that is mutualy exclusive to being cheaper than non vegan. U can either have vegan and cheap but tasts like (in my opinion) shit millions of literaly unobtainable flavours (not opinion objective). Or u can have more expensive than non vegan with heigly proccessed vegan meat and cheese alternatives etc (obtain the unobtainable flavours at the price of being more expensive than a puece of meat egg fish honey etc.

2.The Least Harm Principle May Require that Humans Consume a Diet Containing Large Herbivores, Not a Vegan Diet

Cooking non-vegan is a superset of vegan cooking, and ill admit there are many great vegan food items and all of them make a wondefull side to a piece meat they canot however replace that meat lest they invoke a monitary coat heigher than that of meat.
Mate im from australia and there is one thing we dont have a lot of and thats water. The water requirements of plants humans can eat that can replace the part that meat has in our (my) diet requure far more of that shit. U know what happilly eats grass that requires no addional watering other than what natrualy falls on it even in aus beef. Those machines work really hard and really efficiently at collecting all those nutrients spread extrordinarily thin across a vast landscape unable to sustain many human crops and puts it into one nice little compact disc of goodness called a steak. Vasr majority isnt what we should be doing but u seem to think we should burn the whole system down instead of fixing the one we have.

Dont the meat and dary industry have investments in all the vegan alternative tho? Plus one really should be supporting small independant farmers not big industrial titans like the onea that drive the vegan markwt viewing it as simply another niche to concer and extract profit from (cos statisticly vegans come from first world rich countries)

[–] breadsmasher 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It commodifies animal life. Many vegans choose not to consume animal products due to this. Its the idea of using an animal for consumption. Even eggs and honey which don’t require murdering the animal - its turning an animals life into just a commodity

[–] muntedcrocodile -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Isnt that how the governments of the world view their citizens are we all not just a comodaty whos only purpose is to make gdp go up?

[–] breadsmasher 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

How is that relevant to how vegans eat?

[–] muntedcrocodile 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Well since humans are animals then to adhere to the idealogy would comunismy not be the only way to ensure there is no commododisation of animals (us humans)?

[–] breadsmasher 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I don’t eat humans?

[–] muntedcrocodile 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

But ur fine exploiting them in a society that views them as a commodaty whats the difference between that and animals?

[–] ivylovesbirds 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Not sure about them, but my veganism includes both human and non-human animal liberation. I’m against the exploitation of ALL sentient beings. We’re not free until we’re all free.

You might appreciate this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_liberation

[–] muntedcrocodile -1 points 11 months ago

Anarchy hahahhahaha. Look anarchy is no solution it is what our ansestors had millions of years ago and hence has led to the current situation we call society. The current system is the natrual product of anarchy. Also anrachy will immediatpy lead to the strong killing the week and given that statisticly vegans are malnurished ur first to go.