this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2024
98 points (96.2% liked)
Linux
48640 readers
2230 users here now
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
Rules
- Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.
- No misinformation
- No NSFW content
- No hate speech, bigotry, etc
Related Communities
Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
My two cents; if you want to use Linux on it, then do yourself a favor and pick a laptop from a Linux-first vendor. So the likes of NovaCustom, Star Labs, System76, Tuxedo and others found on the link over here come to mind. Besides that, it's important that the device in question either has a dedicated GPU (or at least supports eGPUs). Furthermore, choose a device with relatively high battery capacity; they go up to ~99 Wh, so pick something that's at least relatively close to that number.
Please don't; tuxedo/system76/metabox/etc are all rebadged Clevo ODM designs.
The support that these vendors put in for Linux is miniscule, and the hardware is "fine" at best. I for one love my desktop 3700x and 3060ti mobile stuffed into a laptop chassis. No compromises were made on this hardware.
Conversely, Dell and Lenovo laptops tend to have very good Linux support and can be had relatively cheaply, especially if you get something that isn't bleeding edge.
Yup, clearly. /s
Wow, that's a bold claim if anything. First time seeing a Pop!_OS-denier, I assume you also deny the existence of COSMIC? And these are just some of the work done done by System76 only.
Another bold claim; one which only holds true if merely Apple's finest go beyond "fine".
Hmm..., very interesting! I'm totally oblivious of the existence of such a thing. If that is your benchmark, then I can actually understand what you meant with your earlier claim. Please feel free to enlighten me on how this works 😊.
I don't deny this. However, none of Dell's laptops with decent Linux support have an AMD CPU (or one of Intel's latest Meteor Lake CPUs). Thus, at least in terms of battery life, it's not desirable; with battery life being something that OP has explicitly mentioned. As for Lenovo, the Thinkpad-line (the one generally recommended for its Linux-support) with AMD CPUs starts at a very high price. At which point, the "fine" hardware from the Linux-first vendor not only starts to be attractive but highly desirable by comparison.
That seemed nice until....
WTF? 400€ to change the keyboard language?
So what happens is that changing the keyboard language comes together with the CPU upgrade from Intel® Core® i3-1315U to Intel® Core® i7-1360P. That's what you pay for*. I agree with you that they might have done a better job at conveying what's happening. For whatever it's worth, I didn't immediately notice this myself. Therefore I tried to contact them in hopes of resolving the issue. They responded very quickly (like within a couple of minutes) and explained what was going on. Props to them for that!
Good on them for explaining. But at that price, why even propose the option? That's a 40% price increase just to get your keyboard layout where it's free everywhere else.
Fixed that for you*.
Oh right, I misread your first comment sorry.
Np fam. In retrospect, I agree with you that I should have done a better job at making it as clear as possible ☺️.
To clarify, they do jack shit to add major hardware support (etc). This seems like a disingenuous response.
Pop isn't adding anything much to Linux; it's yet another Debian derivative by way of Ubuntu. Take this from me as a system admin who has supported (and used) Pop, and has had to dig into the internals and submit bugs. Cosmic is cool and all, but it's mostly just eye candy for GNOME at the end of the day. System76 also seem to still be developing working with other people skills.
That's fine, if that's what you want. There's nothing inherently wrong with using Pop.
Tuxedo still haven't as far as I'm aware released ITE829x Linux drivers (in an upstreamable form) for example; I had to reverse engineer the damned chip.
Clevo hardware lacks a lot of the polish that you just quietly get from a major manufacturer.
Sorry, the 3060ti was conflating my desktop; it's literally a 2060 which is far worse in terms of termals and power.
The Clevo NH58AD can be specced with a Ryzen 7 3700X and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060. I have one. There are definitely trade-offs and for some reason the damned thing is quite unstable with 3200MHz RAM even though it's explicitly supported.
I have this laptop. I look at the Linux offerings from these manufacturers. I contribute to them. In my professional life I've managed fleets of Laptops from major manufacturers (particularly the business-y lines), with some rebadged Clevos (for some reason) at the mix. I am speaking from experience with the hardware here.
I actually have another previous gen Intel one, too - it has some interesting design choices.
I'm not saying that it's all bad, and you seem to be taking this as something of a personal attack.
It's fine to like these companies. I want them to succeed, but Clevo as an ODM tend to produce products that lack the polish of a comparable (say) Dell, and don't achieve the same volume of sales as a major manufacturer to achieve lower costs through increased volume (etc) - the cost savings have to come from somewhere and often that's the firmware, material design, and design quality.
These products are fine, don't pretend that they're perfect though, you're doing them a disservice.
Thank you for your reply! Much appreciated ☺️!
Thanks! That's the clarification that I needed.
My apologies if it seemed that way, that wasn't my intention.
In absolute sense, to the kernel; sure.
That's where we clearly differ. It offers (arguably) the easiest installation for Nvidia drivers (which is especially useful for new users). Furthermore, it has other neat functionality like a recovery partition; which is otherwise absent on any other Linux distro (at least that I'm aware off). I agree that these things mostly benefit the new user rather than the established one. Nonetheless, even if we're not the target audience, we shouldn't be dismissive of the work that others put into their platform.
How can it be for GNOME if it's its own Desktop Environment? Sure, it relies on GTK (like most other DEs). But it's a Rust-based DE, which is (AFAIK) unique and already commendable by itself. Again, I don't understand if you're just trying to be dismissive of other people's work or just being ignorant/misinformed.
While this particular case is new to me, I can't say I'm surprised. FWIW, even Linux Torvalds himself needed to put effort in self-improving themselves in this department. Therefore, I don't quite understand why you felt the need to bring this up. FWIW, I never said or implied that System76 is some holy organization that can't do anything wrong. You made a vague statement with "The support that these vendors put in for Linux is miniscule" and I only intended to point out some of their continued contributions to 'Linux'. I could have named any other Linux-first vendor, but System76 seemed to be the most renowned and that's why I went with that one.
That's unfortunate. And I think that this short paragraph is the summary of your grievances with these Linux-first vendors. And if that's the case, then it's at least worth mentioning that I'm absolutely oblivious of the challenges that you might have faced in this regard.
This sentiment made me very curious into how much laptop vendors contribute to the Linux kernel in general^[1]^. Unfortunately, there was not a lot that I could find. Perhaps I'm just very bad at looking into that kinda thing. Therefore, if you're aware of a (half-)decent way to somehow see how much effort is done by different laptop vendors in order to support hardware on Linux, then please feel free to notify me of that 😊.
I'd have to take your word on it as you're clearly more experienced in this regard. But would you be so kind to give an example of two comparable laptops at comparable price-points; one from Clevo and another from a major manufacturer, in which the lack of polish is clearly visible? Like, if I as an average consumer look at the review on the Schenker XMG Focus 16 found on Notebookcheck.net and compare that to the reviews of the laptops it's compared to in its verdict, then I don't notice anything significant. Note that I've mostly just skimped the reviews*.
No problem. Thank you for clarifying!
Thank you for your continued contributions 😊!
This wasn't clear in your first reply.
My apologies if it came across like that, I certainly didn't intend that*. To perhaps better illustrate how I read your first reply, allow me to paste it down below:
My inner thoughts while reading your first reply
Alright, they're not in favor of it, which is totally fine. Let's see what they bring up.
False. (I pointed this out in my earlier reply.)
Vague statement at best. But if support isn't specified as hardware support, then it's another false statement.
Another vague statement; but at least their alternative should be better, right?
First time hearing this. Internet search didn't give me any pointers. All of their statements so far haven't been written with care, perhaps they've been smoking something. But I'll give them the benefit of doubt and ask them how this works.
Alright, so they've somehow managed something incredible (if at all). I'm sure they'll tell us what this is and how this is not Clevo. (In retrospect, what did you actually mean with this statement?)
Okay, I guess that's to be expected. But I don't recall a great experience looking into their catalogue the last time. *checks*; yup, still lackluster at best (pointed to this in my earlier reply).
(Back to normal mode) So, to sum it up: I didn't like your alternatives and stated why. As to your criticism towards Linux-first vendors; 1 false statement, 1 vague statement, 1 false/vague statement. Furthermore, there was a vague description of a device which initially seemed custom at best, but in retrospect seems to be a Clevo after all 😅.
Agreed. I probably couldn't have said it better. But, this doesn't mean that Dell or Lenovo (or any other major manufacturer for that matter) themselves actually accomplish in making good products. Theoretically, they should be able to produce either better (and/)or cheaper devices. However, the fact of the matter is that this simply isn't the case (or at least not substantially/significantly). The Thinkpads sold today are just an excuse compared to the Thinkpads that were sold in the past. Similarly, Dell's XPS series shook the market in the past, but now they've stuck on a bad implementation of what Apple^[2]^ deemed unworthy (talking about touch instead real keys for function keys (etc)).
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure pretty soon (probs with Meteor Lake already) Dell's and Lenovo's Linux offerings (so talking strictly about a subset of their offerings, refer to my earlier reply for the links) will at least be considerable CPU-wise. But until then, if anyone is serious about using their laptop as a proper workstation with somewhat decent battery life^[3]^, then it's simply not worth to bother with Dell (like at all) or Lenovo (unless they're willing to pay a hefty price for it).
So just to be absolutely clear. I don't categorically dismiss Dell, Lenovo or any other major manufacturer for that matter. But for OP's requirements; currently, they seem to be (at best) very expensive.
Alright, so I suppose this is a reaction to the following statements of mine:
I'm sure earlier paragraphs should have been sufficient to explain my thoughts on this. But just in case; they're not perfect. But -IMO- for OP's requirements, they're at the very least worth considering.
Can we discontinue the /s please. Its just cringe and adds nothing. (Minor pet peeve)
Hmm..., I think with the level of literacy (or just plain text skimping) we find on the internet, anything that helps in conveying the message is a clear win; especially if merely the use of just two characters enables one to achieve this.
Could you elaborate on what you dislike about it? I'm just genuinely curious*.
The /s is cheap, lazy and sometimes rude. I've never seen it add anything and at worst it can be a insult to someone's intelligence.
Hmm..., so if I understand you correctly; using /s is lazy, so I should either not try to convey sarcasm in written text or make it more clear that it's sarcasm without saying that it's sarcasm? Perhaps a better question would be: how would you formulate that one sentence? Once again, I'm genuinely curious and I'm thankful that you took the effort to type that down.
I think the key is not trying to make a joke out of something obvious. It isn't funny and if you are making the joke right most people will pick up that its satire.
I think I got you now. I won't change my ways; /s is just way too convenient for me to give up on 😅. I guess I'm weak... Regardless, I think you've at least given me some food for thought. So thank you for that!
I had a 10th gen S76 Lemur. The hardware was a mixed bag. Chassis was nice and light (compared to Apple), but enameled so the edges eventually chipped. Keyboard/trackpad were average. Speakers were awful... Battery life was excellent like usually got around 20 hours on a charge (and often more with a little effort!). I also had a number of hardware failures and dealing with their support was pretty terrible... Broken control key out of the box, Wifi died twice, second time they replaced the motherboard (and that took like... 9 weeks), then it completely died a year later when it was finally out of warranty. A real mixed bag of Pop OS being nice, and having great software/firmware support, but also multiple hardware failures coupled with terrible warranty support.
I found there support to be pretty helpful although I've only had two issues. The first issue was the track pad would quick working on a reboot and was fixed by updated the firmware. The second issue was my thunderbolt port stopped working and was fixed by disconnecting the battery for 10 min.
Other than that my laptop is very nice and performs well. The speakers are also pretty good and I don't have any complains.
I disagree. I have a System76 laptop and I love it and there support team. I could care less that it is a Clevo. It also comes with system76 boot which allows you to weaken Intel ME.
That's good for you, really. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and I'm not going to have a go at you for liking a brand.
I have several rebadged Clevos just through happenstance - right place right time deals. For what I paid they are great laptops - I wouldn't buy one new though. My old (secondhand) XPS 15 was a far superior experience overall while still packing broadly similar hardware to one of my Clevos - I ended up giving it away when I got a 3700X based system which just lacks some of the polish that you get from a major manufacturer.
I also once had a Dell that would 'sing' to me in a quiet room; I eventually worked out that I was hearing the pci-e and USB through the speakers. Not pleasant. YMMV. Use what makes you happy.
I highly recommend avoiding this rhetoric because you will end up paying more for inferior hardware.
You are not actually "doing yourself a favor."
Ultimately, any discussion on this would boil down to cost vs convenience. As OP hasn't explicitly stated anything on this regard, it seems unproductive to delve into this further. However, strictly speaking, I have to agree with you that the Linux-first vendors are (in almost all cases) more expensive. Thank you for pointing that out for OP.
In case you're as bored as I am 😅.
Let's start with stating some facts from OP:Therefore, I assumed that OP wasn't cost-limited by any means (they didn't state it anyways).
Anyhow, allow me to illustrate how much OP might have to "pay more" for "inferior hardware":
They said they don't game. Why GPU? That's horrible for battery.
GPUs aren't exclusive to gaming (as you should know).
OP mentioned the intent to do video editing on the device. Unfortunately, the amount of good video editors on Linux is currently limited to just Davinci Resolve(; sure, the likes of Kdenlive (etc) exists, but none of them are very suitable for professional usage^[1]^). While I'm thankful that Davinci Resolve works on Linux, it's -according to their own documentation- simply not possible to make use of it without a dedicated GPU (at least on Linux). Thus, warranting the need for a dedicated GPU.
I'm aware that that's a concern. Thankfully, there are workarounds. And if all else fails, there's always the possibility to make use of eGPUs; which I've actually explicitly mentioned in my earlier reply for this exact reason (without mentioning explicitly for which reason it was mentioned*).
Just my two cents... But my x1 carbon, running tumbleweed has been my single greatest Linux on laptop experience, ever... And I've used many different laptops over the years. System76, framework, Lenovo, Dell, Asus, hp, apple... My x1 has been absolutely amazing!
That's very valuable! Thank you for mentioning that! To make it even more relevant to OP, I would like to pose the following questions:
Thank you in advance!
Cpu is an i5, and I forget what specific model but I can check. My carbon is an older Gen 5. It also just uses the Cpu for graphics... No dedicated graphics card. Battery life is good concidering the age (the battery is still original, and I get probably 3 hrs with moderate use. My carbon also is the 8gb (ram) model. On this particular model the ram is soldered on, so upgrading isn't an option (without replacing the board, obviously).
Now, for me... I use the machine for work. I'm a systems administrator and spend most of my time remotong into servers and end user machines... So the work load on the laptop is on the lighter side. I do have various vm's that I spin up form time to time, but never more than one at a time.
Anyway, as I said before, it has been the single greatest Linux experience on a laptop I've ever had. Everything just works, and it's been rock solid. I've been running this machine as a daily driver for work now for about three years.
Edit: Love the down vote, also. Makes me feel like this is reddit all over again. Lmao. Down vote for sharing an opinion of what's been the best Linux on laptop experience I've ever had. Whoever down voted me.. Can you correct me and tell me the correct answer for what has been the best Linux experience on a laptop? I'm obviously mistaken.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! I'm afraid it might not be very relevant as it's a device that's at least 6 years old by now 😅 (at least according to this source. Regardless, user experiences are valuable. And I'm glad to hear that the device has been working flawlessly for you so far 😊.
Haters gonna hate, I guess. Don't worry too much about it. The thread you're in (so the one starting with my first reply under this post) also is the most controversial under this post. So I wouldn't be surprised if some folks just down voted indiscriminately for... some reason...