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Funny how when it comes to Israeli extremists we all discuss nuance and how complicated and messy politics and language is but when it comes to extremists in resistance organizations it's immediately assumed that what they say colours the entire resistance.
Which extremists in resistance orgs are you referencing?
Cough-Hamas-cough
Lol it's always so fun that they'll speak in code but never acknowledge the actual abhorrence of the things they support.
Who is "they"?
Everyone who supports Hamas, like the poster above is doing by referring to them as a "resistance group" with "a few radicals."
So... You didn't understand the point that was made. Aight
SCB is a professional at missing the point. You don't respond to them to have a discussion, just to pop the balloon for people coming in after.
I definitely understood, yes. Hamas is not a "resistance org", and they don't have a "few extremists". Every member of Hamas is an extremist who is willing to torture and murder Palestinians who challenge them.
https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-tortured-me-dissent-heres-what-they-really-think-palestinians-opinion-1857169
That is not a resistance group. They are all extremists, by definition, because Hamas is a Jihadist Islamist group, even if you take Israel completely off the table.
In their own words:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
Support for the Palestinian people neither requires, nor implies, support for Hamas, and support for Hamas is, definitionally, not support for the Palestinian people.
I would imagine any group of people who are experiencing a genocide, to consider any group of people who are fighting against their oppressors, to be resistance movements. Likewise for any proponent of the interests of those committing the genocide, to consider any opposing group as terrorists, regardless of whose goals are advanced by the group existing.
It's Israel committing a genocide. Hamas attacking Israel. And Palestinians being genocided.
Focusing on the second part, and making a big deal of whether or not the subjective and pretty much meaningless "terrorist" label applies to Hamas, is what's gotten quite tiresome. It smells so much like the "🙉.... but do you condemn Hamas?"-rhetoric.
Hamas took over the country in 2007, after Israel had left Gaza. They then promptly canceled elections forever, declared Jihad, and began torturing dissidents to death.
They have not only actively fought a 2-state solution and secularization, but have opposed Israel normalizing relations with neighbors, because their goal is the eradication of Israel.
Moreover, Hamas has stolen aid money, impeded and corrupted aid groups, and restricted access to medical supplies and food to solidify their own power.
There is no defense for Hamas, and referring to them as a "resistance group" is both inherently dishonest and empowering to the terror organization.
This discussion is not and has never been about Gazan's - this discussion is about OP calling them a "resistance group with some radical elements" which they are not.
They took over by winning the election. And they repudiated further elections because the response wasn't an attempt to work with a clearly moderated Hamas in a post war setting, but to blockade them and conduct assassinations and air strikes. When Israel demonstrates a clear physical veto on Palestinian elections then any election result is moot. You want to paint them as bloodthirsty warlords but that just ain't the story. As for controlling aid, so does every other government in the world.
You may want to look up what Hamas did to the opposition party, but I doubt you'll be swayed, because what you believe is pure propaganda.
I cannot believe you can excuse terrorism in your mind so easily. Support for Palestinians in no way implies you need to support Hamas.
But are you willing to condemn Israel for its genocide?
If they were committing genocide, sure.
No. Not if. Do you condemn Israel for its very real and ongoing genocide, including acts of state sponsored terrorism?
If this were real, sure
But there will be Gazans in 2025, 2030, etc. ideally in their own state.
Just out of curiosity what did they say in 2005? or 2018? Or did you want to perpetuate the idea that once someone is radicalized there can never be peace? It sure does make the world simpler, but the bloodshed never ends that way. And that's abhorrent in and of itself. Hamas absolutely became more moderate and had Israel assassinate their leadership and blockade Gaza in response. Since then Israel has assassinated several doctors and teachers under your idea that anyone associating with Hamas is a horrible no good person. This along with the blockade has made it impossible for Hamas to govern responsibly, and they are in fact acts of war.
I firmly believe everyone even emotionally aligning with Hamas has some very serious issues. I never condoned the killing of any civilian, and never will.
Disgust with Hamas's atrocities does not imply that I support the deaths of civilians in any way.
Hamas has no interest in governing responsibly.
Sure you can believe that because you've spent 3 decades ignoring what they've actually said and instead listened to likuud propaganda.
One of us certainly believes propaganda.
Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to the continued illegal occupation of Palestinian territories by Israel and the corruption of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. That's literally a resistance group. Nobody said they weren't also culpable in some heinous shit but Israel has several politicians in ministerial positions calling for genocide, just with different words like, "Clear them out" or "significantly reduce the population of Gazans". And of the two Israel is the one with the power to do it. So yeah that's who I'm going to worry about.
Hamas was literally formed because the Palestinian government was becoming too secular and was too interested in peace with Israel.
Here is an interview, with quotes, and details, with a literal expert on th subject who is also Pro-Palestinian.
How Hamas got elected:
Israel did not become aggressive to Hamas until after they began terrorist activities.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227#:~:text=ARABLOUEI%3A%20So%20Sheikh%20Yassin%20and,Islamist%20ideology%20created%20the%20organization.
This frustration and aggression is also detailed in the original Hamas charter
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
You don't have to agree with Israel's government, response, or how this war is being prosecuted, to understand that
1: Hamas is an islamic terror organization that usurped a government and denies democracy to millions
2: Hamas cannot and will not back down, because Jihad is their sole purpose for existing
3: A two state solution was one-track, and is always infinitely more possible with any other Palestinian leadership.
Support for Hamas is always wrong. Gazans who support Hamas today are wrong, but they do not deserve to be killed or to suffer as they have been.
Lmao, you're still trying to tie Hamas of 2023 to Hamas of 1987. Even the article you cite has the expert calling it a resistance organization. Then you add in that Jihad is their only purpose for existing. That's you. Not them. This isn't AQ/ISIS. They have one, very clear, reasonable demand that we are bending over backwards to avoid. If Israel ended their occupation and submitted to a UN mission for peacekeeping and elections Hamas would lose all of it's reason for existence. Believe it or not, people don't like to commit suicide or murder. They have to be driven to it. Militaries do it by training and indoctrination, resistance groups just hoover up broken people who were Indoctrinated by oppression.
Which is why the number one way of ending political violence always has been and always will be bringing the group into the decision making process if it's at all reasonable. That's why you see a peace process in Colombia, but cult deprogramming and military action with ISIS. As long as conservatives can count on sheep like you running around shouting, "they just hate us for no reason!" They will have cover to continue the cycle of oppression.
We are specifically talking about the formation of Hamas in this conversation. I was rebutting your points.
Funny you try to skim past that.
Nah son. This was the conversation at the start-
Which is in response to someone breaking their back to to defend the likuud party. You don't get to move those goalposts.
Still running from the whole teardown eh
I'm not the one running and making excuses.
strong disagree on that one lol
That's because they're politicians in a political structure where different views exist and matter.
As opposed to a group of insurgents where their level of extremism is irrelevant. If you're a part of the group willing to resort to mass murder and kidnapping you're in the "too extreme" group already.
Asking for a nuanced view of "resistance fighters" is like asking for a nuanced view of serial killers, they're all a problem. Trying to identify which serial killer did it for the correct reasons or doesn't really want to kill people but does anyways is a ridiculous concept.
So mass arrests of protestors and holding them without charge is what?
And they're literally committing genocide in front of your eyes.
At what point do you figure it out?
Fuck Hamas. Talk to me about Fatah and Hezbollah.