First off, for purposes of grokking this, I request you take the perspective, even if only for a moment, that everything in your human dream is 180 degrees off, a little like a reflection in a mirror. Allow for that possibility while you read the following.
When you appear to have been born into humanness, you died to your True Nature, to Truth. You were birthed into this human dream but it was actually a death from the perspective of Truth.
When you appear to die in the human dream, what is really happening is you are being born back into your True nature, Truth. When you are born you die and when you die you are born.
Imagine a night dream... the characters appear within a dream, they are birthed. Later that dream ends and the characters disappear (die). Where did they go? Nowhere, because there never existed. Yes, they appeared to have a variety of experiences within that night dream which might indicate they were 'real' characters.. seeing, hearing, feeling various experiences, but they were not 'real'. From their dream perspective they felt real, but upon awakening the dreaming human realizes they were just illusory.
In a lucid dream, which you have probably experienced, you wake up to your true nature as that of the human character having the night dream. You awaken inside the dream to the reality that the character in the night dream is the creation of a human. Said human is outside the dream. Where does the night dream character go? Nowhere, because he/she wasn't 'real' to start with. You might say he/she died and was absorbed back in the dreaming human. As above, so below.
Contemplate this, you are already dead. You couldn't be deader and some day you will die to this human dream and will become alive to your True Nature. Truth is the dreamer and, in your human format you are a dreamed character.
You might ask why your human character seems so real and believable. Your night dreams appear real while they are happening. If your dream of humanness did not appear real, with the validation of the senses and human drama, you would not stick around for the entertainment.
Could all this human dream be solely for entertainment? You can make up any reason you want for this human dream, I find entertainment works for me.
However this is simply a thought arising within your current experience. And this implies that it can be any other way. There's no reason that it can't be Samsara after death, there's no reason that it can't be anything else.
In fact there's nothing to indicate that we become self realized upon death. Of course there's nothing to indicate Samsara is truth either. In fact there's nothing to indicate anything about what comes after death.
I'm not trying to shake your beliefs because we clearly believe the same thing, however what I'm saying is there is the possibility for it to be "any other way" and until we experience it directly, we will not know if we are truly correct. That's why faith and certainty is really the only thing we have. There are no facts outside of intuition itself.
Self realization upon death is not a fundamental property of experience, it is simply a thought we have about the after life. Of course if you have 100% faith that everything becomes self realized upon death, then that's no different from the real thing.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-11-05 23:59:05 (dpdipuw)
I actually agree with the first half and disagree with the second half.
So the first half is this: "I'm saying is there is the possibility for it to be 'any other way'" -- yes. The possibility is wide open. To understand this wide open possibility is to understand all-potential. However! Here comes the tricky part:
"until we experience it directly, we will not know if we are truly correct" - nope. Experience is not meaningful on its own. Experience requires interpretation. There are countless ways to take the same experience and arrive at countless different conclusions about the nature and properties and meaning of that experience based on how you want to interpret it. So, no, when we experience anything, be it now or later, that doesn't tell us anything whatsoever about "how it really is."
The only thing we know is that we have a choice. Choice is undeniable. I can believe this or that. I can move this or that way. All knowing and experience is selective and optional, which implies volition. There is no specific experience and no concrete knowing that is obligatory. But that there has to be some experience and some knowing is a constant. That's why capacity differs from some specific exercise of that same capacity. My ability to dance any dance is not the same thing as my skill to shuffle dance. In fact it's possible to be able to dance and yet not consciously know how to dance. To be able to dance only means I can, in principle, learn how to dance. That's all. It means I am dancing-compatible. It doesn't even mean I can imagine dancing today. I might be so confused that I cannot even consciously imagine dancing. But if in principle, with some training, I can later on imagine dancing, and then eventually I can learn to dance, then I am in principle dancing-compatible. That's what capacity means.
Because there is no experience and no knowing without willing (choice), there is no experience that is straightforwardly informative. Of course you can choose to interpret some or all of the suggestive appearances you experience as straightforwardly informative. That's a choice you have. But that's only one of many options you have.
From a subjective idealist POV if I see an appearance that looks like a sun, it doesn't imply "there is a sun." If I see an appearance that suggests a distance it does not mean "there is distance." How I interpret all these suggestive appearances is still, in the final analysis, up to me (or you, from your own perspective).
This point is very important in all sorts of ways, not the least of which, in determining whether or not your spells "have worked." You cannot go by appearances. :) If you take appearances as informative, you cannot really become the author of those appearances. Think of this as a cartoon author looking at a blank sheet. If you let a blank sheet of paper inform you, it tells you "there is no cartoon here, it's just a sheet." But as a cartoonist, you then draw, impose a cartoon on the sheet. You ignore the message of the sheet and impose your own message. Before you can impose your message you first have to disrespect and disregard the sheet's assertion that it can only and ever be blank sheet and that's all it can ever be and is. As a cartoonist you say, "even though you look like this, I know better than you what you are. You're a cartoon. Let me show you." So you override appearances by your own inner authority.
If you worship appearances the way scientists do, you cannot magickally control those appearances, but have to instead study them in the manner of science.
I'm summoning /u/therewasguy for extra fun.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-11-06 00:34:26 (dpdjtny)
So I meant this in a slightly different way. An experience beyond death is no different than an experience of me waking up tomorrow morning and eating breakfast. They are both simply experiences at their core. What they both also share in common is that they are future tense and they are things I haven't yet experienced.
Waking up and eating breakfast tomorrow is a certainty as far as I know (assuming I don't randomly die tonight lol). This is because the routine and habits have become so entrenched that I am 99.99% certain I will wake up and eat tomorrow morning.
I say 99.99% because there is always a tiny, tiny chance that I will not experience that. As I said, I might accidentally die tonight or experience some other event that prevents me from eating breakfast or in the best case scenario I might end up in an epic 100 year lucid dream or something. And so until I experience tomorrow morning directly, I can never truly be sure if I will wake up and eat breakfast.
It is the same for an experience beyond death. As an example, let's say I think I will end up in a white room upon dying. I could believe that with all my heart, but as with the example above, there is always a tiny, tiny chance that I will not experience a white room and until I directly experience life beyond death, I won't 100% know if I'll end up in the white room.
Experience contains implication. A door implies a room beyond it. A view of a city implies a planet and a whole civilization to go with it. And so death (ending of this experience) implies a host of unknown things beyond this experience. And so ultimately I won't exactly know what the future holds until I experience it directly.
Fortunately though, intuition generally doesn't lie, and if your gut feeling says something, it's probably right. So I most likely will wake up tomorrow and eat breakfast. And my personal idea of life after death is most likely correct as well.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-11-07 00:27:01 (dpf8ytk)
I agree with everything you just said, but don't you realize that what I was pointing out is wildly different and more radical than everything you just said? You're talking about the flow of conventional meanings here. I'm talking about what exists beyond convention. Here I am using convention in two meanings:
a) Convention is what is widely agreed upon in society.
b) Convention is what you yourself adhere to as a matter of course, a habit.
I'm saying there is also something beyond convention. This doesn't contradict anything you just said, btw.
The point is, I experience typing on reddit now. But am I really typing on reddit? If I can doubt this experience, I can doubt any experience. If that's the case, then with regard to specifics death will not clarify anything.
Clarity ultimately doesn't come from appearances. It comes from will. But we don't have to die to understand this.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-11-07 00:45:28 (dpf9oum)
Yeah I agree with your comment about interpretations of experience but I can't deny that I'm in a conventional world right now. I can attempt to reject convention but habit will instantly contradict that. Old ways will kick in. The way I see it, I'm working within the boundaries of convention in an attempt to eventually skip convention altogether in one fell swoop.
Sure I can reject all appearances as they arrive but after spending a life adhering to convention, it isn't easy to drop it all at once.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-11-07 01:13:13 (dpfaujp)
You can. You just don't want to. :)
Habits are forged by something other than more habits.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2017-11-07 01:25:58 (dpfbf28)
Maybe so. I've experimented and still continue to experiment with adopting different perspectives but it's mostly just that; experiments. It's not my primary go-to method when it comes to deconstructing the dream.
True
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-11-07 14:59:33 (dpgk1mv)
You could say nothing happened and everything happened already ;)
Whatever the case even the current experience may seem like it's not death, it may be a long dream within another dream within another dream looping.
It could be an infinite dream, It could be just this one host dream or 3 or more.
Whatever it is i believe the awareness will eventually reach a good reset point where, it might say something like. Ok fuck that? absurd experience not doing that again. But then again for all i know maybe we love suffering without realizing it? Guess we get a punch line laugh every time we die or something. I mean why else would I sign up for this shit? Whatever happens, it's clear that we can never die. So even an infinite illusion sounds good to me, We get to be an amazing godly god eventually ;)
But the sad part is we'll probably experience all the bad stuff too maybe or maybe not. For all i know i/you could intentionally set up dummies.
Maybe we are a dummy playing with our god selves without realizing it?
Awareness seems split but it's rather the same CPU core if you will.
Can there be multiple CPU cores?
No, that's just naive realism. There can never be anything else but one nothing where everything comes out of. In that everything there can be multiple nonsense yes. Like various constants allowing various multi verses or what not, or rules that we can't really define with language nor dimensions since it's simply beyond human comprehension. Even easily out of a greater society's in our gallactical space comprehension.
Originally commented by u/therewasguy on 2017-11-06 00:11:11 (dpdj2qk)
I agree. You could say everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will happen is right here. Although it's just semantics at this point but the general idea is the same.
Awareness isn't a thing that does anything. It's more like a property of experience. There isn't any inherent meaning to awareness, it does not have a plan or a goal, because it is literally that which experiences. Awareness can't even look at itself, in the same way the property of eyesight can't view itself. The closest thing you can get to actually experiencing awareness is seeing reflections of yourself, as awareness.
Awareness is always aware so if it is aware of itself, it means it must somehow be aware of a reflection or an illusion or even a concept of itself. So in reality, you are always "true nature", meaning you are always "awareness" but to become self realized is to basically look at yourself in the mirror, as awareness.
I guess this is up to personal interpretation. I don't know why I'm here, I don't really care either because the answer can literally be anything, there is no right or wrong, there is only a perspective. So for me, the best perspective might be to say I am deliberately here for some unknown reason. Or I can say it was purely random processes that lead to this life.
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-11-06 00:47:40 (dpdka4w)
An eye can't look at an eye, an ear can't hear an ear, skin can't feel itself, only sensations presented to it. Keep in mind, I am speaking about the level of this dream, not Truth. Truth does not perceive anything, but contains all perception.
So, it's not unreasonable to ask how awareness could be aware of itself. In your own experience there is a sense that you are aware of things your senses present to you, correct? If you will look closely, it's obvious (within this dream of humanness) that you are aware you have awareness. This is awareness of awareness. It's very simple. Awareness can be aware of awareness and even aware that it is aware that it is aware.. of itself.
Taking this a step further, as you look out upon the dream we call this world, awareness (BTW, it's not ''your'' awareness, it's the same in every human) is filled up with a variety of objects, more accurately they are hallucinations. They distract from a most amazing thing, the apparency that you are aware. What fills the senses is taken to be the important facet when it is insignificant compared to the illusion that you are aware, and further, that you appear to be aware you are aware.
What is purpose of all my noise, well.. I suggest you focus on the fact that you do appear to be aware and are aware of that appearance. If you can focus enough on it you may well get to the truth of that illusion. There is no such thing as awareness, there is no one or thing that could ever be aware and yet, awareness does appear.. all within a dream and nothing more. The way out is through. Seems like I can't really think myself out, that doesn't work.
I just guessed since it's infinite why can't it give itself a property of a stop reset temporarily or what not? Although I'm aware it's still out of time so, I guess no dimension or property can touch it. Still a food for thought, maybe create a smaller circle where it's possible for it to try a few temp reset points while using other experiences? I can't really communicate it in language. I'm not sure how to explain what i'm trying to say, it's very misleading. I'm sorry.
Edit trying again:
nothing/Infinite void
-something-
-something-
-let's keep going here add lots of fillers and constants-
multi-verse
universe
Let's say one of the something's there can be that what i want some sort of reset thing awareness?
Originally commented by u/therewasguy on 2017-11-06 01:08:20 (dpdl0qv)
Yeah you can't think your way out of the dream, because thinking is just more content that arises within the dream. Thinking is still an important part in the process of awakening. We need knowledge in order to make sense of our experience, but intellectual knowledge is really just the first step in awakening. After we have sufficient intellectual knowledge we can put that knowledge to practical use (e.g meditation, self enquiry, etc) in order to see the dream for what it really is.
Awareness doesn't have the ability to set up resets or stop points. Everything is illusion, even the concept of somehow "becoming one with awareness" is still an illusion. It's all illusion, you can never escape it. There is the property of being aware and then there is the content that arises within awareness, because to be aware inherently means that there is something to be aware of. You cannot be aware and have nothing to be aware of because it's a contradiction.
So the only thing that can set up reset points is an illusory self. Presumably an illusory self with omnipotent powers. Even adopting the position "I am awareness" is illusory. You are always awareness, whether you're a human or something else.
So to get the ability to set reset points I'd say it's like this:
~ Property of being aware
Awareness of being aware
Awareness of being an omnipotent being (sets reset points)
Awareness of being a person
death of person
awareness of being an omnipotent being (sets reset points)
awareness of being aware
Originally commented by u/Green-Moon on 2017-11-07 00:57:34 (dpfa6jk)