this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2023
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Since I started playing (and watching stuff) with subtitles, I realised just how much I’ve missed from poor sound mixing.
Poor sound mixing is exactly why I watch most things with subs by default now. I got sick of constantly having to turn the volume up to hear dialogue and then quickly back down to avoid massive explosions etc.
And I feel this is an escalating problem. Sound mixing is generally horrible in both games and movies/TV. Unless you blow out your speakers during the higher peaks, you've got no chance of hearing dialogue.
Does anyone have any clue to why this is such a well-spread phenomenon? Why is it like this? I mean, I get it (kinda) at a cinema, but I think it's way overplayed there as well.
For films, you have idiots like Christopher Nolan who's head is so far up his own ass he can probably see daylight. He purposefully mixes the audio poorly so nobody can hear anything, and likes it that way because .... something something something immersion artsy bullshit. I couldn't even finish watching Tenet, we turned it off halfway through because we had zero clue what was going on, and I will refuse to ever watch another Nolan film after that.
For games, I think it's just poor mixing, I doubt they mean to do it on purpose. They just don't invest in the proper audio people.
Interesting, I thought the sound mixing in films was poor because it was designed for cinema viewing and then not optimised for home setups. But I don't watch many movies on the big screen anymore. I thought at least some people were enjoying good quality mixing haha
That's a big part of it. And people can have so many different set ups now too. And there isn't time/funding to redo the mix for them all. There was a good article that covered some of the various reasons, I can't find it but some others...
https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres-why-movie-dialogue-has-gotten-more-difficult-to-understand-and-three-ways-to-fix-it/
https://www.avclub.com/television-film-sound-audio-quality-subtitles-why-1849664873
The article I'm thinking of also mentioned mics changing, and actors not having to speak directly into it to get anything. So it opens up far more realistic acting, but makes capturing/mixing that dialogue more difficult.
That's really interesting too! I guess there are so many combinations of recording equipment, the quality of the mix, the streaming services spec, and the consumers set up, that they can't accommodate everyone.
Thanks for the links 👍
I honestly am a huge Nolan fan but could not agree more with his audio lately. I was really frustrated in the theater during Dunkirk trying to figure out what the heck Tom Hardy was saying. Tenet, at times, was also pretty bad. I still really liked both movies, but they would have been better experiences if I could have not dedicated so many resources to hear a word in a garbled mess of voice.
Nolan movies are meant to be loud. Obnoxiously loud. I saw Dunkirk in 70mm IMAX and it was punishingly loud, and amazing.
Basically, Nolan movies can't be watched in any shared or multi-unit living situations. You need to crank them to "this is going to piss off the neighbours" volume. But that's specific to the types of movies he makes, which are experiences more than narratives.
I am also pretty sure he has major hearing loss and nobody wants to tell him.
I hate Nolans films because of this
I mean if you watch the movie in a cinema that might make sense... But at home with regular TV speakers it's gonna be awful.
Part of it is they are mixed in professional environments (studios) for professional environments (cinema).
Part of it is they can't mix for someone with a 10 year old tv using its built in speakers in a shared living room with street noise, 15 feet from the sofa and a brand new TV through a sound bar in a rural mansion 8 feet from the sofa, and someone using airpods over Bluetooth.
Plus people tend to listen to things at a volume similar to conversational level, but in a cinema you listen to things at a volume that would be considered impolite to your neighbors if you did it in an apartment block.
Finally, sound engineers are artists and dynamics (louder and quieter parts) are part of their craft. Actors are artists and their vocal performances also have dynamics.
A question to ask yourself is have you considered more actively participating in the sound delivery methods of your media? I'm not here to say "all people are watching TV wrong!" but I would ask if most people have even thought carefully about their sound delivery choices, their own EQ settings in their TV, how well tuned their environment is for active listening, and if they just need to turn their volume up?
I appreciate not everyone can blaze the sound on max — but if you do have to sacrifice some volume, maybe part of that tradeoff is clarity of dialogue?
You say this like there aren't plenty of movies and shows that don't have this problem at all, even YouTubers generally knock this out of the park.
Dialogue is one of the only things that should always be clear, it exists to tell the story and missing critical parts of that because they can't be assed to make sure it sounds half decent in more than one specific environment using one specific audio technology is not something I'm willing to support.
I genuinely do think it depends. YouTube is actually a good example here: content videos created to enforce a feedback loop to beat the algorithm are more likely to be optimized to tend towards beating out the competition and meet watchtime and engagement metrics. In that way they are (arguably) more akin to advertisements (that have a very high volume and prioritize cutting through noise) than they are to drama (and comedy).
Although drama isn't looking to bore you either, if it opened with dramatic sobbing and weeping, ended with dramatic sobbing and weeping, and also consisted of 90s mins of sobbing and weeping between — it would fail. Drama needs dynamics, youtubers do not (necessarily).
Even in theaters, however, the sound mixing in Tenet was way off. And that may be bad setups at the theaters, but the fact that the complaint was so widespread indicates that the blame likely rests elsewhere.
depends on you see it in imax or in a 20 year old cinema.
it was mixed for imax.
.
Nolan is just partially deaf imo. Dynamic Range is nice and especially for the 5.1 mix it's great. Still dialogue should be understandable and at least be mostly mixed to the center channel so I can boost it if I want.
Also the 2.1 mix needs to focus on dialogue. No one who watches in 2.1 cares for the dynamic range and subbass stuff imho.
I'm not saying they need to mix for everyone, but how hard is it to make a decent 2.1 channel mix? That would cover 99% of the people complaining with minimal effort.
It seems tv audio engineers expect everyone to have a high end theater speaker setup: that's the only way to be able to hear it, apart from to use headphones, which is cheaper, but it's not a great solution. You'd think apps like netflix and Disney plus would be able to include a setting like video games that selects a different audio mix, or separate tracks for dialogue and sfx each with thier own volume slider.
because it's never re-mixed for home release. it's the OG mix for theathers.
re-mixing it would cost too much money and too few people give a fuck about proper sound.
This is why I think dynamic range compression should be a standard feature for TVs, phones, stereos, PCs and other consumer devices that output audio. Something to even out quiet dialogue and loud explosions would be a godsend for movie watchers everywhere.
I know Windows has a compressor of sorts built in, the audio equalization feature, and I wish there were a good equivalent for this on Linux.
Truth be told, with my auditory processing issues, I'd probably still be using subtitles in tandem with compression/equalization if it were an option. BUT, it'd still be nice to have for watching things late at night without waking other people up.
Funnily enough, watching TV in bed is the other reason I started watching with subs! I've since switched to bluetooth headphones for that and I find I don't usually need subtitles if I'm using them.
Install easyeffects if it's not installed by default. You can have all kinds of audio processing for both output and input
Tried that a while ago. I found a preset that was supposed to be similar to Windows' audio equalization, but I wasn't satisfied with the results.
I just encountered that when playing Fallout 76 for the first time. When I first started up the game everything was so loud so I turned it down to what I thought would be a good level. But when I played a holotape in a terminal it was so quiet AND even when I had subtitles turned on for some reason they didn't appear :/
As a non-native English speaker it's quite reassuring that native speakers (I assume?) don't understand everything either.
Just curious, do you have the same issue with your native tongue?
Rarely, if ever. But if I watch something local it is usually news, game shows or something like that, not big screen productions that usually suffer from this "loud sound, silent speech" annoyance.
Unless it's some rural dialect. Then all bets are off. But then I have the same problem with many English dialects.
That's the answer in my book. I mainly use it for that very same purpose. Additionally, new games with their own game worlds and confusing made up words that sound different between characters.
Now think about all the visual stuff you're missing while reading subtitles.
This feels like a self report on having really bad reading speed than like an actual criticism of subtitles
Huge agree. If I can watch Redline and Dead Leaves in their original language with English subtitles first and miss nothing when compared to watching the English dub after the fact, I think I can catch pretty much whatever most movies will throw at me just fine.
You don't. In The Netherlands we always watch with subtitles in theaters and at home for foreign movies/series (and sometimes even Dutch due to the mixing issues and trying to eat snacks ;) ). You read these without looking a them directly.
I'm from a non english speaking country too and I don't agree, subtitles are distracting and does make you miss stuff.
It's not a huge deal but I do prefer no subtitles if it's a language i understand.
I don’t have to actually read them slowly, its like an extra thing giving me information. Like seeing words and hearing them in one go. It’s not distracting in the slightest
Doesn't apply to everyone.
Where it does apply, you got an excuse for a second viewing.
Plus if we're talking about games, you generally should have some awareness of your surroundings even when watching subtitles. If you didn't, just paying attention to your UI while playing would be difficult.
As if my ADHD ass could choose to only pay attention to the subtitles anyway?
It's like reading a road sign while driving on the freeway. I can read the sign out of my peripheral vision, without focusing on it or taking my eyes off the road. I assumed everyone did this?
I don't think you can read signs in your peripheral vision without focusing on them.
Looking at road signs is done very quickly yes but you definitely are shifting your focus for a sec.
I know this is about video games but for movies it's often the case that they were mixed for a surround sound system and then just combined for the stereo out that most people end up using.
People take the piss out of anime dub voice acting but it's the one place I don't feel I need subtitles.
For Video games subtitles are ok. But with movies, I have them. They are too diszracting for me so I read subtitles all the time instead of watching the movie. If I wanted to read a book, I would read a book...
I have them on as some accents are just really hard to understand for me. Also, when I eat while watching a movie I miss half the stuff^^