this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2023
216 points (86.5% liked)
Asklemmy
44151 readers
1963 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- [email protected]: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Worse for the world? Bush. Worse for America? Trump. But I don’t really care about America so Bush from me.
I'll just leave this here:
Obama administration left Trump administration with a pandemic response plan that was largely ignored.
Yes I’m aware of this. But most of the world fell down on the response plan. He just fell down harder.
Also, it’s such a uniquely North American thing to downplay the invasion of other countries. They went in after 9/11, using a terrorist attacking as an excuse to use war tactics known as “shock and awe” MOAB bombing to make the CITIZENS feel helpless while they literally went and privatized their entire resource economy so that it would go to foreign businesses. Do you understand what that means for a country? How absolutely fucked up that is?
(a) I'm not downplaying the invasion of other countries, so right off the bat you're mischaracterizing what I'm saying.
If anything, you are downplaying Trump's involvement in American wars in the Middle East, which he may not have started, but he was certainly a willing participant in them. Droning people with impunity and less accountability than ever before, and even assassinating an Iranian general in January 2020--an act that could have very easily escalated into a direct conflict with Iran and its allies.
Also it's funny that you bring up the MOAB, because from what I remember it was Trump, not Bush, who dropped the MOAB on Afghanistan in 2017; resulting in the largest single explosive attack by America since the dropping of the atomic bombs during WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Nangarhar_airstrike
(b) Downloading invasions is very obviously not a "uniquely North American thing". See: Russian downplaying of the invasion of Ukraine, Japan downplaying the history of their invasions of Asia, British attitudes towards imperialism and the pillaging of cultural artifacts from all over the world, Chinese annexation of Tibet and the literal filtering of information regarding it, and so on for all of human history.
Trump and Bush were both awful presidents and human beings, but I maintain that Trump was worse for America, for democracy, and for the Earth.
Covid global deaths: 6.5 million (aside from the million+ in the US I doubt Trumps handling caused more than half)
War on Terror: 4.5 million deaths in the wars. 38 million people displaced/refugees.
I stand with the assessment that Bush was far worse for the world.
You also have to consider that 100% of the war deaths were actively done with intent while spreading COVID was more passive and the result of a lot of idiots ignoring good practice. One is negligence, while the other is malice.
When world leaders like Trump (1) ignore pandemic planning, (2) lie about the seriousness and gravity of the situation during the crucial early days and weeks of the pandemic, (3) turn pandemic precautions and public safety measures into just another pointless item in their culture war, and (4) spend just about every waking moment scapegoating scientists, fomenting conspiracy theories, and intentionally muddying the waters, it's can no longer be considered "negligence".
Right from the guy at the top, the Trump administration made calculated political decisions and came up with talking points that actively made COVID-19 worse, and we are still feeling the effects of it today. The pandemic may be "over" when it comes to public policy, but an incalculable number of people all over the world are still having health problems as a result of the virus (which is now endemic to humanity), and we are still very much in the middle of the economic fallout with still no end in sight.
Whether COVID was worse than the War on Terror is debatable and subjective (I'm not exactly a fan of either, frankly), but there's no doubt in my mind that the effects of COVID on global health and economics were much more wide-spread.
How is trump guilty for covid deaths in other countries?
Listen, I'm not really into quantifying human suffering like that, so let's just suffice to say that both Trump and Bush were fucking terrible human beings who did lasting damage to the world.
It's also very much worth noting that Trump was a willing and active participant in American wars in the Middle East, and he did so with impunity and with less accountability than his predecessors. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ (Plus he assassinated an Iranian general in Iraq without the knowledge and consent of the Iraqi government, which is arguably a war crime and could have easily escalated into a war with Iran.)