this post was submitted on 18 Mar 2023
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I've heard conflicting things about their political orientation.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Their ideology is in their indigeneity. They do study western leftist currents, but don't see them as their own movement. Rather, they see the proletarian struggle (as colonizers with colonizer class interests) as something separate from their struggle against colonization by the mexican federal government. They welcome Mexicans to engage in their own struggle, but believe it will be a fundamentally different thing with different aims. Proletarians do not understand the EZLN's aims or ideology in such a way that a communist state would necessarily be compatible. The EZLN sees global communism as a noble goal to end imperialist hegemony, but they don't believe a proletarian communist state will automatically consider their interests in the same way they currently can manage under self governance. For them to integrate, respect would have to be earned.

While we are on the subject of rebellious indigenous peoples, a parenthesis would be in order: the Zapatistas believe that in Mexico recovery and defence of national sovereignty are part of the anti-liberal revolution. Paradoxically, the ZNLA finds itself accused of attempting to fragment the Mexican nation.

The reality is that the only forces that have spoken for separatism are the businessmen of the oil-rich state of Tabasco, and the Institutional Revolutionary Party members of parliament from Chiapas. The Zapatistas, for their part, think that it is necessary to defend the nation state in the face of globalisation, and that the attempts to break Mexico into fragments are being made by the government, and not by the just demands of the Indian peoples for autonomy. The ZNLA and the majority of the national indigenous movement want the Indian peoples not to separate from Mexico but to be recognised as an integral part of the country, with their own specificities. They also aspire to a Mexico which espouses democracy, freedom and justice. Whereas the ZNLA fights to defend national sovereignty, the Mexican Federal Army functions to protect a government which has destroyed the material bases of sovereignty and which has offered the country not only to large-scale foreign capital, but also to drug trafficking.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-the-fourth-world-war-has-begun

Zapatistas have won the right to the word: to say what we want to, about what we want to, when we want to. And for this we do not have to consult with or ask permission from anyone. Not from Aznar, nor the king Juan Carlos, nor the judge Garzo’n, nor ETA.

We know that the Zapatistas don’t have a place in the (dis) agreement of the revolutionary and vanguard organizations of the world, or in the rearguard. This doesn’t make us feel bad. To the contrary, it satisfies us. We don’t grieve when we recognize that our ideas and proposals don’t have an eternal horizon, and that there are ideas and proposals better suited than ours. So we have renounced the role of vanguards and to obligate anyone to accept our thinking over another argument wouldn’t be the force of reason.

Our weapons are not used to impose ideas or ways of life, rather to defend a way of thinking and a way of seeing the world and relating to it, something that, even though it can learn a lot from other thoughts and ways of life, also has a lot to teach. We are not those who you have to demand respect from. It’s already been seen how we are a failure of “revolutionary vanguards” and so our respect wouldn’ t be useful for anything. Your people are those you have to win respect from. And “respect” is one thing; another very distinct thing is “fear”. We know you are angry because we haven’t taken you seriously, but it is not your fault. We don’t take anyone seriously, not even ourselves. Because whoever takes themselves seriously has stopped with the thought that their truth should be the truth for everyone and forever. And, sooner or later, they dedicate their force not so that their truth will be born, grow, be fruitful and die (because no earthly truth is absolute and eternal) rather they use it to kill everything that doesn’t agree with this truth.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

So, in other words, they don't have a consistent or coherent ideology outside of identity politics and are opposed to solidarity with either anarchists, Marxists or soc-dems. I've been growing increasingly skeptical of them, as it seems more and more to me that they want to play commune out in the jungle, the rest of the country and the world be damned. If they were really deeply committed to indigenous liberation, they should recognize that there are indigenous people outside of Chiapas who also need liberation and would benefit from positive contact with the EZLN. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they wouldn't participate in a proletarian state in the event of one being formed in Mexico, proletarians would end up having to crush them and dispose of their unprincipled practices, right?

Edit: What I mean when I say identity politics here is that they are not trying to build any kind of solidarity with other colonized people in Mexico, which looks to me like they are far more concerned with themselves than ending capitalism in Mexico building a socialist system.

Edit: This is overstated at best and openly wrong at worst. I have been corrected.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

proletarians would end up having to crush them and dispose of their unprincipled practices, right?

This cracker mentality is exactly why they don't take marxists seriously.

they are not trying to build any kind of solidarity with other colonized people in Mexico

They will if those people try to do things their own way, but as it stands they have enough on their plate holding their own border (similar to Cuba, which sends aid but not soldiers due to US pressure). It's like asking a starving man why he won't donate to charity while doing nothing yourself, and why Galeano calls out the Basque revolutionaries who pointed a finger while failing to take root in their own territory. They haven't shown they can do the work, while the EZLN has. You are the chauvinist he is addressing in his letter.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Lovely racial slur. I have been advocating on their behalf, sent money to them, and bought their coffee as well. I'm sorry to have criticisms of them, but they have been isolating themselves deliberately, which is an error. I admire the Cubans for sending aid to people who show no solidarity with them and denounce their movement, which is the right choice to make.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's a slur, if a weak one. But sure, advocating a broader movement built on their successes is chauvinist, I guess.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You are a cracker who thinks buying coffee and posting online are revolutionary activities

[–] Ya_Boy_Skinny_Penis 0 points 1 year ago

And the most effort you've put into anything is impotent shitposting, so tone it down, kettle.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It's all I can do short of flying there and picking up a rifle. I'm in and have been in a couple of orgs in real life that have given messages of support their way. What have you done for them?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if they wouldn’t participate in a proletarian state in the event of one being formed in Mexico, proletarians would end up having to crush them and dispose of their unprincipled practices, right?

I'm not the one fantasizing about crushing indigenous peoples if they don't comply

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I'm not fantasizing about it, I was asking if it might have to happen. This is not the same as saying that it is should happen, this is wondering if conflict between militant non-Marxists and militant Marxists might come to pass, as it often has before. I reiterate, in what way have you done more than me?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

NORMAL PEOPLE do NOT go around "asking questions" about whether or not indigenous people should be crushed

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

lmao I thought you were engaging in good faith until you said cracker is a slur

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Like I said, it is a weak one, but it is none the less childish to call someone you disagree with names like this.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I'm not getting into the weeds about this with a stranger, but it's apparent that you don't understand that simply using mean name calling against the people in power is not the same as the people in power using hate speech to further their systemic order based on bigotry. You can't be racist to white people as long as white supremacy is the status quo.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What power do I have? I'm not a mod of any kind here, and if I had any power in society do you think I would be here? I'll grant I'm privileged, but power is something else that I neither have nor want.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It legitimately cannot be possible to be this fucking dense

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Do you mean like, being white I have the power to commit hate crimes? I mean, suppose, but like I said I wouldn't want to do that kind of thing any way.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's not what is being said, you dense fuck. Calling "cracker" a slur is fucking stupid, because White supremacy is still entrenched as the dominant ideology in the US.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Would you prefer I said epithet? Is that more accurate?

You're right about white supremacy, didn't I essentially acknowledge that with my comment?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

didn’t I essentially acknowledge that with my comment?

NO

I’ll grant I’m privileged, but power is something else that I neither have nor want.

Privilege IS power

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I've understood privilege in the context I am talking about, white racial privilege, to mean exemption from certain oppressions that others face rather than some sort of dispensation of power (of course other than to commit hate crimes and such). If that's an insufficient understanding, would you care to clarify?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Do you genuinely not comprehend that by having privilege, by being exempt from oppression, as you yourself have just stated, you have more power?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I guess? It seems like this could really just be a misunderstanding of terms here. When you said power I thinking of power as being something I can exercise or use, especially on or to someone or something. I am explicitly acknowledging that I have the power to do/say a broad number of things that could hurt many people and get away with it, I am aware from statistics that I have access to more financial resources than many people in this country so I have at least some economic power, and I am aware that the majority of that money ultimately comes from exploitation of oppressed peoples here and abroad. This kind of power and others I didn't list, I have, absolutely. I guess I was thinking you meant something a little more explicit, as you did accuse me of being CIA earlier.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

as you did accuse me of being CIA earlier.

No, see, what I meant is that you are a buffoon doing the CIA's job for free, and you should definitely apply for a career.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, the CIA famously hires MLs. Are you seriously claiming that my mild criticism is tantamount to the actions worst criminal organization in world history? Hell, this is the 101 sub, you're supposed to be allowed to get something wrong. Your constant name calling is one of the most childish things I've ever experienced from a leftist. While I'm not judging your ideas by the way you're presenting them, some people will, and I hope you rethink that approach to correcting people.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You are a White supremacist and you would fit right in with those bastards

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

You argue for the crushing of indigenous people, you engage in White chauvinism, you attack everyone who has called you out on your bullshit, and you play dumb regarding your passive support of White supremacy by going "well, at least I'm not actively murdering minorities!"

You literally sound like a fucking colonial officer, for fuck's sake

You are scum and will rot in hell next to Hitler