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11 arrested in protest at Sen. Bernie Sanders’s office over war in Ukraine
(www.washingtonpost.com)
this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2023
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I can respect the desire for a policy of complete non-intervention.
cringe. It's actually good to take action to reduce harm.
Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though? There were multiple attempts at peace that were sabotaged by either nazi paramilitaries or nato-member politicians. Remember when Zelensky traveled to the front to tell them to respect the ceasefire during Minsk 2 and they didn't? Maybe the people sabotaging peace would be less bold knowing the US isn't going to keep supplying arms.
When Russia is trying to commit genocide against Ukraine? Yes.
Do you have a source for Russia doing genocide or are you just referring to the war?
It's been widely reported by numerous nations and organizations. Search for "Russian genocide Ukraine" and you'll see plenty of credible sources
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russian+genocide+Ukraine&oq=Russian+genocide+Ukraine&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBBzk3OWowajeoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
So no then? Did you learn to critically read the news in school?
I'm wondering if you just posted the link without reading any results and are just doubling down to sound correct.
One of the first articles is AP news reporting UN backed human rights groups calling it genocide
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-human-rights-663b3a4ba24499d93f3f889e98f8b652
And an article by Time reporting the kidnapping of children being investigated as genocide, and that there is already enough evidence for the allegations
https://time.com/6262903/russia-ukraine-genocide-war-crimes/
None of these articles formally come to the conclusion that there is a definitive genocide. They are meant to bait racist bloodthirsty rubes like you to into acting on your biases.
Keep hallucinating wishfully.
From statista:
Even if these estimates are extremely conservative they are low for a genocide. Perhaps Russians are just terrible at genocide and should learn from Americans.
Jewish leadership?
President Zelenskyy is from a Ukrainian Jewish family. At the start of the war Russia claimed Ukraine was taken over by Nazis and they were trying to liberate the country. It was a ridiculous claim and they had to come up with other justifications afterwards
Is it fair to characterise the Ukrainian leadership as Jewish because the President is Jewish?
With the same logic you could say that the USA was under "black leadership" when Obama was president. Whether that is technically true depends on what you mean by "black leadership" and what your expect to entail from it. However, under the leadership of the black president and various black members of House and Senate, black people still continued to be ghettoised, red lined, incarcerated disproportionately, and in general be socioeconomically disadvantaged.
With that in mind, is a Jewish president an enough of an influence to declare the whole leadership Jewish? How do you reconcile that with the constant barrage photos of Ukrainian soldiers with SS and Banderite insignias and tattoos?
Well, in context of "the Nazis have taken over and our only option is a military operation to remove the government", I highly doubt the Nazis would allow a Jewish person to be elected as president in the first place. If they don't have that ability then they clearly don't have enough power to justify a foreign invasion
If they were serious about stopping Nazis maybe they should have started with Dmitry Utkin who has Nazi tattoos and literally named the state-funded Wagner group after Hitler's favorite composer.
It's almost like this has never been about stopping Nazis at all
Why would they not allow that? Literally one Jewish in a seat of power is enough for people like you to turn a blind eye towards entire Nazi batallions. This is after I gave the example of the Obama and how a leader's identity is not necessarily concominant with the direction the state is headed in. Similarly one picture of Utkin with Nazi tattoos is enough to convince you that Wagner in its entirety is Nazi or Nazi aligned or whatever your point is but you won't extend the same courtesy towards Biletsky or the photos of Ukrainian soldiers with Nazi symbology.
It ia possible that Putin and Russia are not ideologically opposed to Nazism though with the WW2 it seems unlikely. Normal people don't believe that the Russian invasion is Putin's holy crusade against the Nazi ideology or a Duginist quest to expand the Russian empire. People who don't base their ontology off of Harry Potter understand that war and conflict for materially grounded reasons rather than ideological initiatives. Russia's invasion was provoked by a US backed coup which installed a pro-US leadership at Russia's doorstep and armed nao-Nazi militias that have been waging an ethnic war against the Russian speaking regions of Ukraine that did not accept the legitimacy of the post-coup government. It does not matter if they are Nazis or Death Eaters of whatever. The war is a response to agressive posturing by the west. Discussions of ideological and rhetorical honesty are not relevant.
Well thank God we're sending those Nazis out to die, then!
Who is we?
The royal we of "whomsoever you're saying is at fault for 'forcing this war'" including NATO, US, etc
I feel like you were trying to make a point instead of typing gibberish but I can't tell what is was
Did you misread the AP link? The un group provides reports of war crimes, not genocide.
The links provided literally claim war crimes, they do not claim genocide.
Also Stalin did some terrible things but comparing him to Putin is ridiculous.
@OurToothbrush I did not compare who to Stalin directly, although reading what I did right I understand the misscommunication. Putin has expressed admiration for Stalin and the significant evidence that he would like to be like Stalin, but I agree that he is not quite there. He has expressed a wish to rebuild the Soviet Union and eliminate true democracy both in former Soviet Union states, in russia, and in the rest of the world. If you look at what he has done in the world, genocide is definitely in his wheelhouse.
Putin might want to be like the idea of Stalin he has in his head, but not the actual "paperwork can wait, hunger cannot" revolutionary communist Stalin.
@OurToothbrush In Ukraine, Stalin created starvation.
@OurToothbrush https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin
Literally not even liberal historians believe that. See: Conquest, Wheatcroft, Davies, Applebaum.
@OurToothbrush https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin
You're literally citing a channel that does stuff on ancient aliens and nazi ufos
@OurToothbrush Here then https://www.npr.org/2022/11/28/1139402378/ukraine-holodomor-famine-stalin-parallels-putin-russia-war
Hoe about you actually go look at academics instead of citing corporate media
@OurToothbrush my history books Aldo mention the starvation devastation Stalin visited upon the Ukrainian population. It is a matter of historical record, witnessed and verified. What about it do you doubt?
Not according to noted anti-communist historians like Conquest, Wheafcroft and Davies, even fucking Applebaum. Have you read something outside a highschool textbook?
@OurToothbrush https://euromaidanpress.com/2017/10/04/why-holodomor-is-genocide-under-un-convention/
@OurToothbrush Yes. History is not my primary subject, but I have three degrees and trust the foremost experts on the subject. https://holodomor.ca/resources/documents-and-sources/documents/
Having three degrees does not make you more knowledgeable on subjects you dont have knowledge in.
You obviously do not have the tools to identify the foremost experts. You have been terrible at identifying credible resources, youre last round has been: book review of a book by an author who has made comments that it isnt a genocide, an encyclopedia, a news article about a vote by a European parliament, and a list of English translated letters that don't show evidence it was a genocide. None are anywhere close to as credible as the well respected mainstream historians who studied this, thought it was a genocide, and then said "no, actually it wasn't" after the undemocratic dissolution of the USSR when more internal documents became available for them.
As for the vote you reference, that event was actually mentioned by this well respected western Jewish historian and activist in his article on holocaust trivialization:
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
You should read it so you understand the political implications of the claim you are making and how it connects to denying the holocaust.
@OurToothbrush Your points are disingenuous. At the time some of the original works that are quoted were written, the term genocide had not come into common use. That makes the point that some of the writers did not use the term rather meaningless. Had you read the articles and researched the background data cited you might have learned something. It is clear to me now that learning that something you have questioned has a strong factual basis is not exactly what you're looking for. You're looking for someone to reaffirm your misconceptions. I am not that guy, and that does not upset me although it seems to upset you. Since you're not interested in anything from me I will abandon this thread at this point, but I suggest you continue and widen your readings I challenge your preconceptions to get closer to the truth. I wish you the best of luck.
What are you even talking about?
I've literally read books on the subject written by people who hold a very negative opinion of the USSR. You have a smorgasbord of hastily assembled articles that you very evidently didn't read, or at least read critically, before citing.
You are projecting.
I literally am interested in something from you, which is that you read and understand the cited article from a well respected Jewish holocaust historian and activist on why what youre doing is holocaust trivialization.
I literally engage with the mainstream anti-ussr western academic consensus on the subject, you want me to credulously engage with revived nazi propaganda that was used as justification for exterminating Jews by Ukrainian collaborators.
@OurToothbrush https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/The-famine-of-1932-33-Holodomor
@OurToothbrush https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2023/10/13/council-of-europe-recognizes-soviet-era-starvation-of-millions-in-ukraine-as-genocide_6168547_143.html#
What were the terms of this peace? Do you have sources to back up your claims?
Are you not aware of Minsk 1 or Minsk 2? There are more but those are the big ones
No I am not. Would you kindly explain and provide sources for this and all your other claims?
No, I think it is reasonable for you to go out and research two well known and easily researchable treaties. I am not your secretary.
I think it is reasonable for me to expect the burden of proof to be on the person making the claims.
I have never thought of the usa helping ukraine because they are interested in ukranian peoples lives. I see them fighting because gaining an ally with great resources and an excellent geographic position is important to maintain power.
They are also testing the new way of running a war between first world armies.
Perhaps I'm wrong but this war benefits american interests beyond being world police.
Or, and stay with me here, we have a blueprint from about a hundred years ago of what happens when you just let a powerful county annex surrounding countries. Spoiler Alert, they don't just stop at 1.