this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2023
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White background & gray text.
When did we shift away from black text?
There's less contrast with gray, and on a lot of displays it's more difficult to read, and more straining on the eyes.
Counterpoint: I think this gets a bad rep because people overdo it. Personally, I think #000000 black text on white to be... Glaring? Like the stark contrast is hurting my eyes. Going for e. G. #444444 solves this while not sacrificing legibility. But then you get fancy #999999 super thin script on white and I'm right there with you.
Do you even find it glaring/like it's hurting your eyes when you're outside or in a very well lit room? Because I'm under the impression that his trend mostly comes from people using their devices in dimly lit areas. #444 does sacrifice some legibility, imho. It's not terrible, but I still much prefer pitch black.
Studies have shown that the excessive contrast of black text on white overstimulates the eyes, creating more eyestrain than dark grey (#444).
Here's a study showing how the overstimulation from black text on white background can cause myopia through choroidal thickening (and the reverse, with white text on black background causing choroidal thinning.) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-28904-x
The problem with that is that not all displays show the same colours and contrasts, so what looks like one shade on monitor A can look totally different on monitor B. Combine that with the massive number of sites that just have any old gray, as opposed to a specifically recognised dark gray, and you frequently end up with text appearing is light or mid gray.
When this happens, (which you notice a lot on certain monitors) the eye strain is faaaaar worse than a nice thin black text. I find myself pressing CTRL-A at times to highlight everything on the page for a little more contrast, because the standard text is so unreadable.
If the shade is really that different, then the problem is a poorly calibrated screen, and black text on white is also going to look "totally different".
You don't always have control of calibration settings when you're on someone else's monitor, but at lest black always looks black and is still readable without selecting text to change it.
Also, as I said, not everyone uses the same shade of gray when building a web page/style/theme. In fact, far from it. Black however, is always black, one shade, 000000.
"Black always looks black"
"...[dark grey] text appearing light or mid grey"
These statements seem anecdotal and contradictory. You're not really addressing the issue of black/white being overstimulating, and causing more eye strain than dark grey/white at any rate.
Nothing anecdotal about that, but sure. And my entire point from the start was that black causes less strain than light gray.
At the end of the day, you have your opinions, I have mine, and I'm sure you're right that dark gray is better than black for eye strain, but in the real world it doesn't work like that due to the reasons I laid out above; monitor calibrations and web devs who just throw whatever shade of gray they want on to it.
I just posted a study showing the problems of black/white. I don't disagree about the overuse of light grey/white, but it's really irrelevant to what I said.
The reason I felt what you were saying was anecdotal is because consistent black is really a feature of amoled screens. If a screen is so badly calibrated that dark grey is coming out substantially lighter then it's probably going to doing something similar to black.
My entire point from the very start, the point that you're replying to, was about the differences in shades of gray, be that from calibration or design choice lol.
From my experience of using screens like this for years, no, it doesn't. Black is black. Gray varies by screen, and more importantly, by web dev.
No developer ponders what shade of black to use, it's 000000. Gray... Not quite as clear cut.
You said "White background & gray text" in your original post - not light grey.
"From my experience of using screens like this for years"
Literally anecdotal. Search for "washed out black screen" - countless examples of black appearing grey.
"No developer ponders what shade of black to use"
And the evidence shows that if it's on a white background, they should be pondering what else to use.
I agree that web developers/designers should be better informed about this - but the trend is probably in the right direction.
It feels like we're arguing semantics for the sake of it, you're entitled to your opinion, as am I. You misinterpreted what I meant from the start, maybe I could have been more explicit. Whatever the case, have a good evening.
It felt like you kept trying to reframe what you actually said rather than admit to being mistaken. You bemoaned the choice of grey/white over black/white. I pointed out studies showing dark grey/white to be objectively better - and rather than say "mb I meant light grey specifically", you tried to BS about dark grey being rendered as light grey, and black always appearing black - based solely on your own experience. It's cool - I'm done. Have a good evening.
I mean, I wasn't mistaken, you drew false conclusions from what I said from the offset, then dug your heals in when I made it crystal clear what was meant, time and time again. Anyway.
You said grey/white causes more eye strain than black/white. I posted a study showing black/white is worse than dark grey/white, and you've danced around the whole thing ever since. But sure - I'm the one digging my heels in.
Yep, that's right, you drew false conclusions from the start, in that I was referring to the same shade of gray as in the study; which, incidentally, was far more focused on light background & dark text vs dark background & light text, than it was black text vs gray text, so it wasn't even really relevant to begin with.
Glad we finally agree!
It's right there in the study:
"However, black text on white background represented a severe overstimulation of the OFF channels"
And yes, the study does refer to the opposite:
"while white text on black background overstimulated the ON channels"
And
"Note that reading white text on black background (ON stimulus, denoted in green) causes choroidal thickening while black text on white background caused choroidal thinning"
...
"Since choroidal thickness changes are precursors for future changes in eye growth, we expect that there will be selective effects on subsequent myopia development.
So black/white causes overstimulation (visual discomfort) and this could be causing future eye health problems.
This overstimulation is well known and understood and is why more knowledgeable web developers etc., understanding that too much contrast literally harms readability, choose something with slightly less contrast - like dark grey/white.
But you can go ahead and frame it however you like. If you're going to continue reframing and outright lying* then there's no point in having a discussion with you. You clearly have difficulty coming to terms with being wrong - which is really quite sad.
*You denied used anecdotal evidence for some wild, easily disproved, assertions (black is always always black), then confirmed a couple of comments later that this was based on your own years of experience - which I'm now strongly suspecting was also BS.
Yeeeah, I'll be honest, I've lost interest in this conversation a long time ago, you're adamant that you're right, even to the point of telling me what I meant when you misinterpreted it.
So yep fine, you must be right, I must be wrong.
Have a fantastic day in full knowledge that I completely, wholeheartedly agree with everything that you've said, and take back everything that I've said.
Gray on white, regardless of shade, is infinitely better than black on white. Atan said so.
You made a blanket statement about grey/white > black/white. I countered that dark grey/white is better.
Dark grey is grey. This is a clear counter example to your blanket statement - no misinterpretation.
You could have just corrected/refined your blanket statement, but instead you lied and bs'd about why dark grey is worse, and when that was called out you tried to make out that really this is all just my misinterpretatiom. Sure dude - whatever. I'm not gonna waste any more of my time arguing with someone that is straight-up dishonest.
I've tried to meet you in the middle when I said you had misinterpreted me but I could've been clearer, I've also brought the conversation to an end multiple times, but you keep telling me I'm wrong, despite the fact that YOU misinterpreted me from the start.
You're absolutely full of shit, acting like you won't waste anymore of your time. You're determined that there's no possible way you could be wrong, and you can't drop it, or you would've stopped when I stopped any of those previous times.
You should maybe speak to someone about your need to be right over people, because it seems clear you have something going on there that needs addressing.
Dude, you've been called out for bullshitting and caught in a lie - which is right there, for everyone to see - and you have no response, other than to say that I'm full of shit.
You never tried to meet in the middle. You just tried to reframe, once again, claiming I was misinterpreting you. If you really meant 'light grey', why did you bullshit about supposed issues with dark grey and 'black is always black' rather than clarify? Here's a guess: You knew you weren't misintepreted, but when your initial response was picked apart, you thought you could lie your way out - because the alternative was admitting to being wrong, and that's beyond your capability.
And no, I don't mind wasting some more time to set the record straight on a public forum. But since it's now clear to all that you've been arguing in bad faith all along, there really is no need to continue.
I'll be honest here, I really couldn't care less what you say anymore, you thought you could correct someone online and feel superior, it didn't pan out, and when you realised you'd misinterpreted everything from the start, you doubled down for the sake of pride.
It's cute, I feel for you, but the link you provided was totally irrelevant to the point being made, and you're now starting to look like a bit of a fool.
No-one cares.
No-one is going to read this far into our argument.
You can feel like your setting the record straight on a public forum if you want, but you were wrong from the start and literally no-one cares. No-one.
This is purely about your own ego and the need for you to be right.
It's OK, I'll admit defeat, you're right. You were right the whole time, I didn't even know the point I was making, but you did. Now run along.
I'd much rather have light-on-dark UI.
Agreed, night mode ftw. Isn't supported everywhere but it's great when it is!