So, I’m kinda new to this Lemmy thingy and the fediverse. I like the fediverse from a technological standpoint. However, I think that, if we gain more and more traction, Lemmy (and by extend the entire fediverse) is a GDPR clusterfuck waiting to happen. With big and expensive repercussions…
Why? Well, according to GDPR, all personal data from EU users must remain in the EU. And personal data goes really far. Even an IP-address is personal data. An e-mail address is personal data. I don’t think there is jurisprudence regarding usernames, so that might be up for discussion.
Since the entire goal of the fediverse is “transporting” all data to all servers inside the ActivityPub/fediverse world, the data of a EU member will be transported all over the place. Resulting in a giant GDPR breach. And I have no idea who will be held responsible… The people hosting an instance? The developers of Lemmy? The developers of ActivityPub?
Large corporations are getting hefty fines for GDPR breaches. And since Lemmy is growing, Lemmy might be “in the spotlights” in the upcoming years.
I don’t like GDPR, and I’m all for the technological setup of the fediverse. However, I definitely can see a “competitor” (that is currently very large but loosing ground quickly) having a clear eye out to eliminate the competition…
What do y’all thing about this?
Public posts and comments are, well, public (and there's no expectation from users that their posts and comments would be private, considering the nature of what Lemmy is).
The only way to not transport public posts and comments to the rest of the internet (including but not limited to other Lemmy instances) would be to completely disconnect an instance from the internet 😅
Posts and comments are not inherently personal data (although they might, of course, contain personal data).
A post of any sane length, though, likely is covered by copyright. Them being public is entirely irrelevant to that in terms of what others are entitled to do with them.
On the other hand, as you say, none of (gestures wildly) this works very well if people start leaning too heavily on that.
Posts and comments in Lemmy contain information relating to an identifiable natural person (by their user handle), as they contain the person’s ideas and opinions. Therefore the Lemmy instances are handling personal data and must comply with the GDPR.
GDPR does not distinguish between public or private data.
GDPR handles public data through propagation. If you download public data that is GDPR covered, the data you downloaded also becomes GDPR covered. You are required to follow all GDPR regulations while handling the downloaded data.
Remember, GDPR covers almost all "collected personal data". It does not matter if the data was originally public, and how/where the data was collected. It's all covered.
However, Lemmy instances may still be exempt from GDPR as they are non-commercial: https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-18/
IANAL as usual.
You're confusing "private" with "personal". My data can be public, but it's still MY data and I have the right to decide what happens with it and if it should stay public. That's what the GDPR says and that's exactly what OP is referring to.
That's the interesting point. Do I really have to do that or should I be able to rely on my instance owner that's located in the EU to take care of that? I'm pretty sure none of us can answer this question. Decentralized services like the Fediverse are probably a new challange for GDPR experts.
I'm not supposing to have any answers either, but from a personal standpoint it seems rather selfish to even entertain the idea of making an instance owner do that. It's not like these people are getting paid for a service (aside from donations, in some cases); they're hosting in the spirit of the fediverse. Why would I pawn legal work off to them?
You and I are not. But if a certain giant site that is currently making not the... euh... best decisions goes in to action with a large legal team...
True... But if it should come to that, I think that people will pull the plug with a 20 million euro fine above their heads... 20 million seams to be the number that works, if you see the reaction of Christian from Apollo...
I think you truly underestimate the GDPR, which is fine, because you don't run a huge Lemmy instance. I just hope the admins of the big instances are taking it more seriously, otherwise this could indeed blow up in their faces one day.
You guys sound so confident, it's not even funny. GDPR is a huge topic and everyone who already had to deal with it even marginally knows that OP's fear is absolutely plausible. The GDPR doesn't give a shit about causing major inconviences or huge workload for platform admins. Ever heard about the GDPR nightmare letter?
Same here. I'm not sure if I'm right, but neither should anyone else here be sure about this topic.
What if the product is designed in a way that violates the GDPR? Again, I'm not sure about that, just like OP. We will see how things will turn out... But as an admin of a large instance I'd be carful for sure.
I never said that Lemmy is designed in that way, I just say that we can't be sure.
Where and how do Twitter or Reddit third party apps store personal data?
That's wrong. When a feddit.de user subscribes to a community on lemmy.world, all the data from the community is going to be replicated to the feddit.de server.
Personal and public is not mutually exclusive. My public posts are still my personal data.
According to the very first paragraph I would say my posts and comments are indeed personal data:
"by reference to an identifier such as [...] an online identifier"
My username is my online identifier here on Lemmy, isn't it?
They don't. They tell the Lemmy server to do so, just like your browser does. It's just a different interface.
My comment with my username above it. My comment is my personal data and I can be identified by my username, bam, personal data that is affected by the GDPR.
I'm by no means a GDPR pro, that's just how I understand all of this.
GDPR Definitions:
"Any information" includes texts I wrote as comment, the timestamp when I posted it and the titles of my posts.
"by reference to an identifier such as [...] an online identifier" includes my username.
How is this not personal data?
OK, you're right, it seems like a username is indeed not enough to be considered as an "online identifier". Maybe Lemmy comments are not personal data per se after all.
You are able to edit and remove your posts on your Lemmy instance. Other Lemmy instances may or may not also reflect these changes, but your instance admin does not have any authority or responsibility to ensure that your previously public posts get deleted anywhere else in the world other than the instance they run.
That's exactly how it works everywhere, it's not a Lemmy specific thing. For example, if you write a public blog post on some public blog service, and later delete it, then it won't be the responsibility of the blog service owner to remove your post from elsewhere on the internet. It will be your own responsibility to manually request removal from other services which have copies of your post (like archvie.org etc).
Please back up this claim. I'm sure not even the best GDPR consultants out there could answer this question with confidence at this point in time.
This is a completely different thing. We're talking about the automatic replication that happens between the different Lemmy instances, not about someone copying your comment and posting it somewhere else.
Again, I think you guys are handling OP's topic way to leasurely. The GDPR is a beast with teeth and it's going to bite your ass if you don't take it seriously enough.
This. Federation doesn't transfer private data of the user, just their public facing profile and posts. There is no expectation of them being private.
The admin of a site, not only fedi ones but any site, can only control what's in their reach. A user could ask as per the GDPR to have their profile and history removed, but data not in the control of the admin is not their responsibility.
Consider it from the perspective of a traditional site, if someone takes a screenshot of something you post and puts it up somewhere else the originating site has no means to control that or to remove the data from a third party location. The same issue has been fought since the dawn of the internet, people trying to erase past events that have spread far and wide. There are even proffesional services available to try and scrub such things, but in the end if all they can do is send takedown requests to another jurisdiction it's going to be an impossible task.
ITT: People that don't undertand the difference between "personal" and "private". My posts and comments are my personal data, even if they're public, and I have the right to decide what happens with it and if it should stay public. That’s what the GDPR says and that’s exactly what OP is referring to.
Personal data according to gdpr is data that can identify you or be tied to you as an individual. Such things are e-mail addresses, phone numbers, names and so on. Posts and comments does not necessarily fulfill this. If you post your name, yes, but this comment that I’m making now would not be classified as personal data.