372
this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
372 points (95.4% liked)
Quotes
41 readers
10 users here now
Any good quotes from speeches, books, articles, etc
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I don't know of many nations that would survive the unrelenting assault of a burgeoning superpower for 8 decades.
I like to think that the SU collapsed from a grain deficit. That's primarily an internal problem.
But that's a side-argument. Where can I find the blueprint for a working non-competitive organization?
We MLs look to USSR, China, and the many smaller socialist countries such as Vietnam, Cuba etc. as examples of a preferable system.
The moment socialism is achieved in a country, all its standards of living skyrocket, by every metric. They often achieve rapid development, a boom of technological research, and a vast reduction in power of the personalities Keynes is referring to.
As Farvana above hints, the only reason this system hasn't rapidly become the standard worldwide is because of the powerful capitalist class greedily and violently protecting its power. Essentially almost every major conflict in the last century has ultimately been about the capitalist class, based in Western host nations, fighting to destroy socialism, the only thing that truly threatens their power.
Socialism is foundationally built on human cooperation. While there are many heart-warming examples of the peoples of these countries working fiercly together, both among themselves and with other countries oppressed by the West, they were born into a hostile world controlled by capitalism and have often had to emulate their enemies just to survive. China in the late 20th century used competition, among other capitalist mechanisms, in order to develop, integrate themselves into the world economy, and to appear obedient to the West so they could quietly build up enough power to act truly independently.
The reason the USSR collapsed is complicated but it really is just a matter of 8 decades of siege and the occasional foundational mistake all piling up and finally materializing in a capitalist coup of the socialist government that was wildly unpopular; it was THEN that lifestyle metrics sharply tanked. Socialism is the newest system in humanity, it has scarcely been around 100 years, it is experimental and the USSR was the first country of its kind. China carefully took notes and devised strategies to make sure they didn't suffer the same fate.
"Human rights abuses on an unprecedented scale"
You either don't believe what you're writing or you're engaging in holocaust denial... And denial of so many other atrocities. If you have actual criticism you can present it but this is just awful.
So you didn't actually have any criticism or anything to say? You just wanted to drop some casual holocaust denial, walk it back, and be an ass?
You walked it back immediately but you absolutely did. Where did I blatantly lie?
Okay I'm gonna stop acting nice because it's completely pointless.
This is absolutely fucking moronic and the best I can make of it is that you're trying to say "I can technically claim anything is unprecedented because time is linear and therefore anything that ever happens is unprecedented." which is the dumbest fucking reddit-brained shit I can imagine.
The bit where you said China is carrying out human rights abuses on an unprecedented scale is fucking holocaust denial because pretending that a "cultural genocide" where neither the UN nor even the most ardent propagandists at the US state department claim that a single person has been killed is worse than THE SYSTEMIC MURDER OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE is fucking disgusting.
I haven't even touched the fact that all your arguments are completely made up, you're a fucking holocaust denier even in your own made up scenario.
Don't you people ever get tired of confirming every single stereotype about anglos?
You're absolutely right. You never outright denied the Holocaust, you only belittled it. You're a Holocaust belittler and you can't possibly argue against that. The best thing you can say at this point is "I belittled the Holocaust and it's victims by claiming that China is carrying out human rights abuses on an unprecedented scale. That was wrong of me." Us scum and pieces of shit, as you call us, usually group downplaying the severity of the Holocaust together with Holocaust denial.
You use inflammatory and exaggerated language, probably because you're racist, definitely because you are ignorant. You repeat nonsense you've heard and probably even make some lies up yourself and justify it by thinking "It's okay to lie a little, they're our enemies.".
Did your slur get removed? Was it racist? Homophobic? Ableist?
Yeah, you people, cracker brits.
"China is committing human rights abuses on an unprecedented scale" is indirectly mentioning the Holocaust. Unless you don't know what unprecedented means? Were you trying to say big?
Do you not think the West, famous for lying abour everything from cigarettes causing cancer to MLK to WMDs in Iraq and anything and everything in between, in their determined mission to destroy countries that do not obey them, killing millions of civilians across the entire globe, would not fabricate some lies about the worst enemy, socialists?
To try and briefly address your points:
spoiler
China during the period of Dengism designstated "Special Economic Zones" where capitalism was carefully coralled and allowed to operate. They did this to placate the West and to use their capital to rapidly develop and ensure the longevity of socialism in China. Yes, at many points, there were terrible conditions...the whole country was poor, but most horror tales we hear are from the 90s, from these Special Economic Zones and places like Hong Kong, and are the work not of the Communist Party, but of foreign and domestic capitalists. The winnings of Dengism in the past decade, as promised, have been used to radically uplift the Chinese people; averages wages continue to grow dramatically, China has the fastest growing middle class, they lifted 800+ million people out of extreme poverty, all while retaining very affordable housing, food, healthcare, education, etc. This idea that Chinese workers all work for pennies in sweatshops is dated and obscures how the CPC has secured them lives that are quickly outpacing American living standards by every metric.
spoiler
China, according to not just the plain facts but the vast Chinese people themselves, is the strongest democracy out of all major nations. 90%+ of Chinese people trust and are satisfied with the CPC, a party which about 100 million people are an active member in, with proportional rates of women and ethnic minorities not only having membership but high positions. There are few police and they are lightly armed. Both in a micro and a macro scale, the CPC has adjusted policy to reflect the will of the people; every major pivot in Chinese modern history, from the revolution to the ideological Cultural Revolution to pragmatic Dengism and now the period of Hu and Xi where Dengism's aforementioned winnings were used to benefit society and return to some socialist idealism, was not a top-down decision, it was responding to the wishes of the common Chinese people. As a smaller example, during COVID, both the strict lockdowns and their eventual relaxation were a direct result of the will of the Chinese people. There is a popular political saying in China that goes: "In the USA, you can change between two political parties but you cannot change the policy. In China, you cannot change the political party, but you can change the policy."
spoiler
I'm not sure which purported abuses you are referring to, but judging by your other comments mentioning Xinjiang I will assume you meant Xinjiang.
This is an actual summary of the "cultural genocide" of the Uighurs in Xinjiang:
-Xinjiang was poor and undeveloped.
-USA took advantage and began channeling Taliban into Xinjiang to radicalize susceptible Uighurs to Islamofascism.
-High increase in terrorism, extremist thought.
-China, instead of violently reacting, tries to take some responsibility, and says "they became radicalized because of their material conditions".
-China begins detaining Islamofascists and suspected Islamofascists to 1) deradicalize and re-educate them, and 2) provide them with free vocational training so they are more economically stable.
-China also seeks to make the Uighurs feel culturally independent but welcome as part of China as a whole; everything from number of mosques to Uighur culture products has only increased since the campaign began.
-Campaign sees great success.
-Enter Adrian Zenz, an American fascist who says he was sent by God to destroy communists and gays, with ties to the CIA.
-Zenz claims he has anonymous evidence of a genocide.
-Western media uncritically and dutifully gives these claims a loudspeaker.
-China responds and says: if any country in the world feels there is a genocide going on, we invite you to show up unannounced to Xinjiang and inspect the facilities for yourself.
-Zero Western countries take them up on this open-ended offer.
-You know who does take them up on their offer? Muslim majority countries. Almost every single Muslim country in the world sends people to inspect Xinjiang up and down. And do you know what happened? They unanimously applaud China for their humane and compassionate handling of Islamic fascists.
-To this day only the USA and its allies have any claims there is a cultural genocide, or ANY human rights abuses, in China. It is their modernized casus belli, it is the way they manufacture consent among Western civilians for more war, war, war.
...
The more you look into China--or any socialist country--you will quickly find they rose from oppressed, impoverished circumstances and gone on to do amazing things, goals we in the West have only dreamed of for generations. Peace and prosperity, art and science. An end to poverty, homelessness, hunger. And then? You will find every capitalist and fascist scrambling to build a narrative that they are somehow dystopias from your worst nightmares. You will soon discover: "American accusations are American confessions."
The rift part in my comment. I think it's not enough to blame the capitalist class. If the masses can be swayed by a few, whatever socialism is implemented can be toppled by a bad idea that happens to arise in somebody's mind.
If AES countries aren't a good enough example for you, then such a blueprint does not exist. I'm not sure why it would though. Was the ascendancy of capitalism over feudalism driven a meticulously detailed blueprint for the new world to come?
Are AES countries good enough for you? Which ones?
I think we haven't found a way to create our level of civilization without competition. It's an open challenge.
Competition? The "civilized" countries built their wealth through violent appropiation of other nations resources and enslavement of their people, not through "competition".
That also happened before. Which country is not ruled by 'winners'? The difference was that the slave owners lost out to the machine owners. The wealth comes from knowledge and investment decisions. Trade came before wars.
What enabled much of the scientific and industrial innovation since the early modern age was the wealth directly extracted from colonies and by European companies who established monopolies throughout the globe.
Colonialism and Slavery are central to Europe's and, eventually, North America's industrialization. Slave owners walked so machine owners can run. Marx talks about this as well.
To picture Europe's wealth as the product of mere trade or 'competition' is simply inaccurate.
I agree.
My point is that other countries with slavery and empires had the slave owners enjoy the profits uninterrupted. The more intense competition that we call capitalism made the difference that led to our civilization.
I don't see how socialism can maintain our level of civilization without that competition.
Well, maybe “we” should reassess how “civilzed” “our level of civilisation” is.
You are more fundamentalist than christian fanatics themselves jfc. Competition only happens when new markets rise, and for a short period of time, it inevitably ends up as a monopoly. It is not a feature unique to capitalism, it has happened throughout history. Developments on production are what drive society forward, not the economic systems and classes that rise from that.
Also what "level of civilization" are you talking about? This is a "civilization" where you get killed for having a different skin color, a different facial feature, being born in land with resources, by demanding basic human dignity ffs.