this post was submitted on 16 Jun 2023
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Why put the Black Panthers in here? 🤨
The Black Panther platform, as I understand it, was:
The Juche platform is:
The Black Panthers were complimentary of the DPRK, and had warm relations with them:
https://archive.ph/QYo19
I don't think your quote is a summary that really shows what the BPP might've liked about Juche:
(On the Juche Idea - Kim Jong-Il p7)
I italicized the bit that stood out to me as most like the BPP.
The DPRK is mostly viewed pretty well here, btw. It's not an insult or a smear to align the Black Panthers with them. It's a compliment.
Why is that?
I'm not in a big argumentative mood today, so I'd like to avoid any big debates if that's ok! :)
Lemmygrad is mostly Marxist-Leninist communists, and the DPRK is usually seen as adapting MLism to their conditions.
When you start to dig into the U$ understanding of the DPRK, you'll start to see that most of the negative, weird, news we read about them is either attributed to anonymous sources or directly comes from the CIA. Most of the insane, hard to believe stuff is pretty likely to be untrue.
The conditions in the DPRK aren't perfect, but they're a direct result of being under siege for something like 90 years, sanctioned (literally) to death by the U$, and having something like 80% of all standing structures obliterated during the Korean war. It's hard, but it looks like they're making the best of what they can.
If you're curious, I'm happy to try to dig up some of the source threads from here and reddit. They've been talked about before!
Sure, send me some threads if you're okay with that. I'm not looking for argument if you don't want it, but I definitely don't agree out of the gate with your assertion. I've read negative stories about the DPRK in all kinds of journalistic outlets that aren't anonymous and that I wouldn't expect to be CIA-influenced.
There are countries where I would 100% agree with your assessment of where the blame lies for their situation (Cuba is probably the prime example), but North Korea isn't one of them. Send me the source threads, I'm curious.
I’m guessing you’re referring to defectors. Many people left in 90’s because of legitimately bad conditions thanks to sanctions and the fall of the USSR. When they go into South Korea they are put into camps where they check if the defectors are spies and then try to brainwash them against communism and against their former leaders. Then once they are free they are often paid large amounts of money to tell (and exaggerate) their story of escape. The more crazy and horrible the story the more they get paid. A decent amount of people want to go back, but the SK government won’t let them. For more information watch ‘Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seol’ which someone already linked.
I meant that they're anonymously sourced, which is very often the case. It might be in the NYT, but it just says "anonymous sources say..."
Like we've all seen this one: https://www.newsweek.com/kim-jong-un-firing-squad-conductor-1590226
But the only source is "A South Korean newspaper". When I tried to find the original article I wasn't able to.
This random article I've found is full of sourced, factual statements. But all the sources are anonymous: https://www.donga.com/en/Search/article/all/20230612/4217131/1
"a government official" "a senior member"
I think you'd be surprise how far the CIA admits to extending. Radio Free Asia is often sourced in anti-China and anti-DPRK news, and they're publicly linked with the CIA.
If you post some links, we can dig into them. Again, not in an argumentative way (insofar as it's possible with a topic so spicy).
I hope you don't mind a link dump! There's been a bunch of threads about it over on reddit:
Videos and podcasts: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/lpdjjc/comment/gob7ow4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Some basic text answers about the DPRK: https://www.reddit.com/r/asktankies/comments/te2dyd/do_most_communists_actually_support_the_dprk/
Prolewiki with a basic overview of the DPRK: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_People%27s_Republic_of_Korea
Archived megathread of links from r/communism: https://web.archive.org/web/20200118135128/https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/cc42bl/dprk_megathread_part_2/
If you watch just one of the documentaries, Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang is pretty good. This is a shitload of links, so I understand it if you don't check most of it out!
They were at least very complimentary of Juche. This article has a few more quotes of primary sources (though it's a bit anti-communist):
https://archive.ph/QYo19
The Juche ideal centers on relying on the creativity of the people to adapt to their situation. It's hard to say they didn't adopt Juche if they say they're influenced by it, and Juche isn't a rigid structure.
It seems to have been specifically Eldridge Cleaver, who had a kid in the DPRK. I didn't read this whole article, but it claims:
https://apjjf.org/2015/13/12/Benjamin-Young/4303.html
There's a paywalled pdf I found that might point to the original source, but I'll have to play with it later.
I feel like I read an archive of a Black Panther article saying they followed Juche, but I'll have to track it down.
Agreed, I'd like to see it as well. Because to me, it sounds a lot like this type of smear that's common in American politics. "You gave an award one time to this POET who also advocated for BLOWING UP THIS BUILDING so clearly you support everything he said, so you're a terrorist!"
The specific assertion was that the BPP "aligned themselves with the Juche ideology of Kim Il Sung." I'm asking, is that accurate? Or did they just talk and were they both generally socialist in nature?
How is it a smear? Both are groups fighting against genocidal Yankees. It makes sense for them to have solidarity with each other.
What?
They both talked about self-reliance and socialist values, but as far as I can tell, the similarity ends there.
The Panthers were fighting against very real systems of violent oppression in the US government and society, and god bless them for it. The DPRK is, in the modern day, a very real system of violent oppression. I'm not sure what they started out as back in the 1960s, but my vague impression is that even at that stage it was something pretty similar (with a bunch of rhetoric about how just was their cause). Do you know their reality back then to be something different from the reality right now?
They were on amicable terms with each other
"Juche is a political ideology that serves as the guiding principle of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), commonly known as North Korea. It was developed by the country's first leader, Kim Il-sung, and is still upheld by subsequent leaders, including Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un.
Juche is often translated as "self-reliance" or "self-determination" and emphasizes the self-reliance and sovereignty of the nation. It promotes the idea that the Korean people are the masters of their own destiny and should rely on their own efforts, resources, and capabilities rather than being dependent on external forces. It encompasses political, economic, and cultural aspects of society.
From the perspective of the DPRK and its citizens, Juche emphasizes the importance of independence and the pursuit of their own unique path. It places great significance on the Korean people's revolutionary spirit and their ability to shape their own destiny. Juche encourages self-sufficiency and the development of domestic industries and resources, aiming to reduce reliance on foreign aid and external influences.
In practical terms, Juche has manifested itself in various policies and practices within North Korea. These include an emphasis on economic self-reliance, the pursuit of nuclear weapons as a means of national defense and deterrence, the promotion of a distinct national identity and culture, and the concept of "military-first politics" (Songun) which prioritizes the military in the allocation of resources.
It's important to note that the understanding and interpretation of Juche can vary depending on who you ask. While the DPRK government presents it as a fundamental principle that guides their policies, some critics argue that Juche is used as a tool for maintaining the regime's control and isolating the country from the rest of the world.
Overall, Juche, from the perspective of the DPRK and its citizens, promotes the idea of self-reliance, independence, and the pursuit of their own unique path in political, economic, and cultural spheres."
One can easily see the parallels with the Panther's approach to self reliance, and community care/defense organizations etc.
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