this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2023
114 points (91.3% liked)
Asklemmy
42527 readers
1441 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- [email protected]: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I'll toss my two cents in
Capitalism is a form of economy where individuals are allowed to obtain, keep, and distribute capital as they see fit, so long as they have the means to do so.
Capital is a combination of property and money. Property being the things you own, with money being a measure of potential property you don't yet own.
It's at the core of the concept. Individuals are allowed to obtain, keep, and distribute capital as they see fit. You and you alone own your capital.
I see a lot of comments saying workers are not allowed to own what they produce. That their employer takes it from them. I feel this is flawed and possibly comes from a place of frustration. So let me ask this: What does an employed worker produce?
If that worker is a self employed craftsman making sprockets, the answer's clear. They produce sprockets. They can then go out and sell those sprockets for goods, services, or money as they see fit.
If that worker is employed by a sprocket making company; they still make sprockets, but that's not what they produce. They produce labor. Which they've chosen to sell to the sprocket company for money and/or other benefits. They may not care about sprockets themselves, don't go to sprocket conventions, and certainly don't want to deal with figuring out how to sell all the sprockets they're making. It's a better deal to sell your labor and use the profit you make off your employer to do the things that actually interest you. It's your employer's job to handle everything else.
Note that selling your labor is no different than selling capital. You set the price you're willing to accept, and your employers (who are your consumers) can accept that price or not. That doesn't mean you can set your price at any number and expect it to stick. Just like how the price of sprockets is dependent on consumer need and competitive prices, so is the price of your labor.
Bonus Questions!
If you also exist in a capitalist economy, then yes.
No. Capitalism cannot exist if you don't have control over your own property.
Yes. Ideally you raise your prices so fewer people buy your product while you still make the same profit as if you were filling those extra orders. Alternatively, you can work to optimize your production methods to create more product in the same amount of time. Be it finding more efficient methods you can practice to make each product, or creating or purchasing equipment which can make each product faster. The balance between price and optimization is up to you.
It's a term to describe a type of business. No different than "corporation" or "partnership" or "nonprofit", among others. The distinction's important in that there's value in being able to describe different types of businesses.
That's not frustration. The viewpoint you are describing (that workers are not allowed to own what they produce) actually comes from a different definition of "capital" and "capitalism" than the one you are using. And that difference in definitions is why I created this post. And I appreciate your answer. It lets me highlight the differences in definitions and the consequences of those differences. Because in the case of capitalism, the difference in definitions are actually more important than any difference in values or priorities.
You noted that people are saying "workers aren't allowed to own what they produce in capitalism." But those people are not referring to capitalism as you have defined it.
Capital
I'm sorry, but no one who disagrees with you thinks that the ability to accrue property and money deprive workers of control over what they produce. Not even Marx and Engels. Not even Mao or Stalin. Certainly, property and money can we wielded in such a way that they become capital. But until then, property and money are merely wealth.
The definition used by people like Marx and Engels -- or by the entire field of economics -- is: capital is property that allows or speeds up the production of goods. A mine. An oil rig. A McDonalds burger conveyor-belt-oven-thingy. A 3D printer. In other words, the word "capital" is about the function of the property. Not its value. A painting can cost $1,000,000 and still not become capital. Because no one will ever operate that painting to cook burgers. Or to mine ores.
Capitalism
Now "the ability to own commodity-producing property" is still not quite sufficient for a system to become "capitalism." In fact, Marx and Engels didn't want any capital to be destroyed at all in the overthrow of the bourgeoisie. Because even under the definition of "capital" that communists still to this day believe in, the existence of capital and ownership of it are still not inherently a source of coercion.
There's another crucial piece to the puzzle that leads to people complaining about the whole system:
In capitalism as a system, some form of employment contract always allows the owner of capital to own everything produced using that capital.
For example, the oil rig owner -- according to employment contracts -- owns all of the oil produced using the oil rig. But not only did the owner not need to work the rig to extract the oil: the owner also did not need to weld the seams or turn the screws to build the oil rig. All the owner needs is official ownership of the oil rig and a system that acknowledges their right to everything the oil rig produces, (regardless of who needed to input their labor to turn the oil rig into anything other than a metal sculpture in the ocean.) and with those two things, they are entitled to all of the proceeds of the rig.
Now, hopefully, you can see that, provided a worker has entered into such a contract, "workers are not allowed to own what they produce" is not a statement born from frustration: it's just true by definition. It's not saying "the worker is NEVER allowed to own anything they ever create in this society." It's saying: "within the relationship laid out by the employment contract, the worker who operates capital is not entitled to the direct consequences of their labor."
Now, whether the worker benefits from this arrangement is another picture, but in accepting an employment contract, the worker is entering into a dynamic where they do not own the outcome of their own labor.
Bonus Question #4
Which is why bonus question #4 (the difference between a workers' cooperative and a company that uses these employment contracts) is extremely important to understanding the consequences of the difference between these definitions. You even touched on its importance in your earlier replies, saying yourself:
(Aside: what you're describing here is literally Marx's theory of alienation.) But more importantly,
I'm assuming the sprocket company "produces" sprockets by your definition of "produce." Well, in a workers' co-op, the workers vote in the decisions of the company. They elect the CEO (if there is one) and the managers. They take shares of the profits. They are the company. And if the workers are the company, and the company produces sprockets, then the workers are once again -- just like if they were self-employed, but with the benefits of efficiency and networking that come from being part of an organization -- producing sprockets. They are no longer (as Marx would say) alienated from the results of their labor.
In other words, the co-op is a form of self-employment according to the definitions you appear to be using. Which makes the distinction between cooperatives and other kinds of companies... massive.
The people saying, "capitalism strips workers of the results of their labor" love workers' co-ops. Love them. Despite you probably defining the workers' cooperative as "another example of capitalism", not even avowed Marxists would in any circumstance suggest that the worker co-op "disallows workers from owning what they produce." In fact, they strongly believe the opposite. To them (and to Marx himself) the worker cooperative operates under an entire opposing paradigm to the worker contract. And to them, it is therefore a rival philosophy to capitalism.
You don't have to accept their definitions. You don't need to believe Marxist definitions are correct. You can believe co-ops are capitalist all you want.
But please: try to understand that when people criticize "capitalism," they are (I 100% guarantee) referring to something far more narrow and far more specific than what you call capitalism.
I get the sense I've touched a nerve here. Though I'm not sure where.
I would like to mention I never suggested the frustration comes from workers not being able to own anything at all. Though I still believe what you said about workers not being entitled to the direct consequences of their labor is flawed. Similar to someone saying "I spend all day pulling oil out of the ground, but I'm not allowed to own any of it". That's a fair complaint, and I'd suggest any oil rig worker who wants to get paid in oil should absolutely negotiate for that with their employer. What I was trying to explain is the "direct consequences of their labor" is the compensation they're paid for providing said labor. You, as a worker, sell your labor for a price, same as any other transaction. If you will, your "sprocket" in this situation is the labor you provide.
I get that the worker is not the only reason the sprocket exists. I understand that he uses someone's else alloy-pouring lava-pitcher to pour molten steel into a sprocket cast someone else owns. Whoever owns those things and consented / instructed for them to be used in the above manner shares responsibility (might even be more responsible) for the creation of that sprocket. But the sprocket still doesn't exist until the worker poured the alloy.
The fact that the worker then didn't create a sprocket, or produce a sprocket, or cause a sprocket to exist -- is an alienating step only found in certain kinds of businesses. (And those are the kinds of businesses anti-capitalists dislike).
For example, a worker can walk into a worker co-op, pour the same kind of alloy heated in the same kind of furnace into a cast that is shaped the exact same, but the worker at this co-op (unlike the worker for the private company) has now created a sprocket.
I'm pretty sure you would agree, right? Because he co-owns the company and he had a democratic voice in the acquisition of the company's tools? He is responsible for all of the things that caused that sprocket to be created. No other factors were more involved than the worker-owner's contributions and decisions.
So even though the co-op worker did the exact same thing using the exact same kinds of machinery as the private company worker, would you agree that the sprocket (which only existed after he poured the alloy) was a direct consequence of the co-op worker's actions? (Whereas it was not a direct consequence of the private employee's actions)
No. Both workers have created a sprocket, which exists as a direct result of their actions
Okay... I'm a bit confused... but I think you are saying the worker in the private company provides -- as his main product -- labor, even though he's still directly responsible for the creation of the sprocket that he poured. And that he is rewarded for his labor, which is his primary contribution, even though he receives no direct reward for the creation of the sprocket.
Am I understanding you? Please ignore everything below this if I'm not understanding you.
On the other hand, if I am understanding you correctly, please read on: the worker in the co-op performed the same task. And unlike the private worker, the co-op worker is given a reward for more than just his labor. He's given a vote in who the sprocket is sold to, a vote in the price set when the sprocket is sold, a vote in the exact mixture of ores going into the sprocket, and (without needing to ask for a raise, without needing to change jobs) the worker in the worker co-op gets a voice in how much he gets paid, what hours he gets scheduled, and how much vacation and sick leave he is allowed.
The worker in the worker co-op gets a voice in general. Agency.
I don't see how those two things just seem like different flavors of "company" to you. One strips the worker of everything but his labor. The other gives him a voice.
To me, that makes them opposites.