this post was submitted on 01 Feb 2025
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I don't understand how bitcoin has value. I know the dollar has no intrinsic value either; we just all agree it does. But the difference between the dollar and bitcoin is that if you decide to stop trading using the dollar, you become a terrorist and get a free hellfire delivery. If you stop trading using the bitcoin, no one cares. How did this whole bitcoin to value begin? How does a brand new currency start without the backing of a state? Why does it keep having value? It's interesting af.
bitcoin has value because people perceive it to have value.
Basically, it went from like 10 people using it, where it was functionally worthless, to like 10 million people using it, where it's value per bitcoin increased by one million fold.
net money in = net money out, the early investors are just reaping the rewards of other people investing their money into it (and then losing it)
Bitcoin has value because they think other people perceive it to have value. Same with dollars, euros, pesos, etc. It's not like art where the value is in the eye of the beholder. It's something where you have to be confident that other people will perceive it to have value too, so when you want to exchange it, there will be other people who will accept it.
Dollars, euros, pesos, etc. have value because they're accepted in thousands of stores, and because you need them to pay your taxes. Even if you, personally, don't think you'll need to hold onto any pesos to pay your own taxes, you know that there are likely to be millions of other people who will need them for their taxes.
With bitcoin, there are essentially no places you can use it to pay taxes, except maybe El Salvador (I don't know if they're still doing that). You can't use it to pay in many stores. Just about the only thing that keeps creating demand for bitcoin is that there aren't many other ways to pay off ransomware demands. Unlike traditional currencies, Bitcoin really relies on the belief that someone else will continue to believe that Bitcoin is still valuable.
Will the bubble eventually burst? I think so. I just think it could stagger on for a few more decades before the belief it has value eventually collapses.
It has value because people are dumb and want a magic way to escape having to contribute to a society that doesn't reward them for it
The difference is that the US government can just print money whereas the supply of BTC is limited.
After years of lurking and staying quiet on the subject, I'll finally bite because it's a valid question and the typical responses are usually poor quality. There will be simplifications, omissions, and errors, but hopefully you'll find it useful nonetheless.
I'll speak specifically to bitcoin, and ignore other crypto currencies where things get increasingly complex.
As you suggest, it has no intrinsic value just as the dollar doesn't, in the sense it's not backed by some physical asset.
Where does the value come from then? Value can be derived from your ability to transact with a currency. There can also be speculation around future value. Both are certainly true of Bitcoin, but it's an evolving ecosystem. In the early days it was a novel idea and a very small number of people transacted with it and derived value that way. Since there's a finite number of BTC value is driven up as more people want to hold it (regardless of whether that's for transaction or speculation). During the silk road period (and to this day), the thought of a decentralised (and somewhat anonymous, let's disregard the complexity and just say that people thought it was) currency would be great for buying and selling illegal goods and services. These transactions increased the value. Since then, there's been a lot more mainstream interest in BTC, largely driving speculation but also transactability. Again, value increases under these conditions.
A lot of criticism of BTC is that it's pure speculation and there's little to no transactability. My thoughts on this is the majority of commenters are simply those that derive no benefit from transacting in a cryptocurrency. The USD, Euros, GBP are all amazingly transactable currencies, so why reach for crypto? The fact is, there are a lot of real world transactions happening with BTC and crypto in general. Several South American countries find themselves with a currency which is an incredibly poor store of value and BTC insulates it's citizens from this. The remittances market is a huge cluster fuck of middlemen and fees, bitcoin is often a better deal.
All this is still changing though. Substantial amounts of crypto transactions are now facilitated by financial entities with improving KYC by firms like Chainalysis. Regulation is forming rapidly, recognising BTC like many other currencies or assets, ensuring that the majority is exchanged and transacted at regulated entities. Still volumes go up. There are more and more companies who will transact directly in crypto.
So I ask the question, if the trajectory of bitcoin is that more and more people are not just holding it, but using it... Why wouldn't it be more valuable, why wouldn't you have expectations of it like any young currency?
Re your point about trading in dollars. There's plenty of states, entities and people who don't use the dollar and they get on just fine. At a national level the US has a vested interest in ensuring a country does trade in dollars, or conversely making sure they can't.
Now the USD is backed by the USA and that's powerful, so how did BTC get started? It's mostly the protocol. Miners find coins and get paid tx fees in exchange for securing the network against a sybil attack. We transact with BTC, or store it. Institutions are formed or pivot to support the ecosystem, the more people using it there more value there is in supporting it.
BTC is 16 years old now and it keeps having value because it's valuable! Perhaps the greatest question is does the value outstrip the speculation? I won't try to answer that, but we've seen a lot of crypto bubbles burst because of this... yet a few remain?
I'll stop here because I could keep expanding and refining, but I have a dinner to go to. Hope this helped in your understanding!
Thank you very much! That all makes sense to me. I think I have a basic understanding of why bitcoin can be an effective currency, but I'm still unsure about the very beginnings though. I don't understand how it took hold. Was it just a small group of friends that were pretend-trading with each other? Even if it was great for illegal trades, how did it start? There had to have been at least 3 entities: 1) buyer, 2) seller, & 3) somewhere for seller to spend gains.
I hadn't thought of the impact that being decentralized would have. If people like somewhere where inflation is going wild, bitcoin is a better option. Now, I want to see a graph of the value of bitcoin vs. the US dollar especially during and after COVID.
Considering that even government-backed currencies have lost their value, I am willing to bet that there are powerful people supporting bitcoin. Otherwise, people would just be bouncing around cryptocurrencies like a casino.
The bottom line is that all crypto is fiat with gimmicks at the end of the day. The only value it has is the perceived value. While with the USD you have a government body proclaiming it's value, along with a vast network of businesses willing to honor its value with goods and services, with crypto you have a patchwork of individuals - mostly crypto hoarders - proclaiming it's value, with very few legitimate businesses actually accepting the currency.
If you have the spoons, you should watch this full breakdown. It covers both crypto and NFTs in-depth.
It's been a while since I looked, but it used to be that bitcoin value pretty closely follows the stock market.
The first major use case were donations to wikileaks, because the existing financial system shut them out. Recently, the Americans shut Russia out of the financial system and stole their money. Escaping financial repression is valuable (even if you don't agree that people should be able to escape).
oh shittttt. this is getting interesting. i got obsessed with the Russia bs when Ukraine was first invaded, but I slowly lost interest because all things psychopath just get me too upset. but it's back to the rabbit hole! ✌
drugs. the answer is drugs.
That's Monero my sweet summer child.
not at the start it wasn't
BTC also still can remain untracable as long as you only deal any tradings of it with people who don't keep other logs that tie to your identity. (Cash trades when buying BTC, and products sellers don't link any deliveries with your BTC transaction)
More specifically it's international crime organizations using it as an alternative to moving cash across borders
ohhhHHHHhhhhh! The criminal organizations are the ones propping that up. Use bitcoin or get cartelled?