this post was submitted on 02 Jun 2023
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You mean that separatist regions that got installed by Russia and would already have lost without the Russian troops intervention in 2014 - 2015? That regions that have a government of brutal former criminals (that brutally oppressed every opposition)? Yes those too. If the people really want to be part of Russia, they can ask for a fair referendum with international observers after Russia fucked off.
They can also just move to Russia if they don’t like living in Ukraine
Let's take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here's the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here's how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
And we can see a few interesting facts about Crimea in a US government study. First thing to note is that it was never part of Ukraine proper. US government referred to it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Second thing to note is that majority of the people in Crimea do not consider themselves Ukrainian, and the biggest demographic considers themselves Russian:
And finally, here are some facts, as documented by western media, about the regime in Ukraine that you're evidently supporting
that's some impressive mental gymnastics for supporting an illegal invasion and nothing you said changes that. if these people don't like living in Ukraine, they can leave. That doesn't excuse Russia for invading another sovereign nation, and Ukraine has every right to defend itself.
it reminds me of this:
“DARVO is an acronym used to describe a common strategy of abusers. The abuser will: Deny the abuse ever took place, then Attack the victim for attempting to hold the abuser accountable; then they will lie and claim that they, the abuser, are the real victim in the situation, thus Reversing the Victim and Offender.”
Lol, and I'm sure you were out there protesting just as much when the US illegally invaded Iraq, Afghanstan, bombed Libya, sanctioned Iran, overthrew the governments of practically half of Latin America, installed Suharto in Indonesia, and committed dozens of other crimes around the world.
The only people doing mental gymnastics here are the ones who genuinely believe that the west is helping Ukraine defend itself as opposed to destroying Ukraine in a proxy war with Russia. You are all going to have a lot of soul searching to do at the end of all this.
"i know you are but what am I?" is the argument of a child, and pretending that the west helping Ukraine is the same as Russia bombing it to bits is treating your audience like children.
believe it or not, not everyone is as foolish as you.
The west is not helping Ukraine, and the fact that people in the west continue to pretend that's the case if absolutely sickening. And you've demonstrated beyond all doubt that you are far more foolish than me.
so you say, but in every demonstrable way, we are, including by every claim made by their government and the plurality of their people. and it's pretty hilarious that you claim to be some authority to make claims to the contrary. The only ones who would claim otherwise are Russia and their supporters, of which you are clearly one.
so, why should anyone take your positions seriously?
The west is helping exactly the same way the west helped Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and countless other countries that were destroyed as a result of western interventions. One has to have a brain as smooth as a bowling ball to think that west gets involved in these conflicts due to some altruistic purposes.
Maybe spend a bit of time educating yourself instead of making a clown of yourself in public. It's frankly embarrassing.
except it's not-- each of those instances are very different, as is this. You can't even accuse any one nation and have to use the nebulous "the west" because your argument isn't even political, it's ideological-- you just hate that anyone is opposing Russia's imperialism, and you're blaming the victim, using every logical fallacy, including personal insult, you can since you have no rational argument to make.
your position is transparent, angry, and you have nothing but nonsense to spew in defense of bullying and disinformation.
edit:
The motivations of the west were exactly the same in each of those instances, and one has to work really hard to not understand what these motivations actually are.
Also, please stop projecting. The only one here who's angry and spewing nonsense here is you. I've provided actual sources and detailed explanations for my position. All you've done was regurgitate propaganda drivel.
Also, whataboutism is a logical fallacy used by pseudo intellectuals to create a double standard for their own actions and those of others. Can't wait to see what you're going to spew here next.
Just because others don't agree with your imaginings (and laughably ignorant assessment) doesn't mean we have to work hard. Acknowledging reality, in fact, requires very little "work".
Criticizing you isn't "protection" nor is pointing out the obviousness of your biases. and I already pointed out how childish the whole "I know you are but what I am?" thing is, but if you want to keep up with that, that's on you.
posting a bunch of pictures of where ethnic Russians live doesn't magically make an illegal invasion legal. THAT is, as you say "propaganda drivel", but that's for playing, lmao
well, at least you admit what you've done wrong. but will you stop? i doubt you'll do more that try to blame me for your actions while claiming to be a victim...
I think you've established pretty firmly your inability to acknowledge reality here.
You're not criticizing anything, you keep regurgitating nonsense here confidently and ignoring actual facts presented to you. Couldn't even be bothered to read the the study your own regime put out.
LMAO children are capable of higher level of discourse than this.
I guess having poor reading comprehension explains a lot about your comments.
there's that childish "I know you are put what am I?" thing again.
now who's denying reality? lol
weren't you just accusing me of projection? and it's always fascinating to me when people on the internet claim to be psychic. i did read it-- it's simply, as I've said, dubious as an objection since it's irrelevant and also reveals your obvious bias. You clearly don't like that someone's standing up to Russia's imperialistic bullying, so you blame the victim and anyone who helps them stand up to the bully. just because the US may also benefit in other ways is irrelevant, and nothing you've said can prove otherwise.
You can whine and moan all you like, but that's all it is: whining and moaning because Russia's bullying is meeting forceful opposition and they're looking like fools as a result.
just because some Russians happen to live in Ukraine doesn't make it ok for Russia to invade, and the fact that you would make such an absurd argument just shows that not only are you incapable of making a rational argument, you're clearly not willing to listen to one. That's backed up by your incessant use of an arsenal of logical fallacies from false equivalence, red herrings, whataboutisms, to ad hominem personal attacks and the constant moving of the goalposts.
Since I can't reason you out of the position you didn't reason yourself into, I don't see the point of continuing this conversation.
Oh look more projection
I see you're confusing name calling with making actual criticisms. You haven't addressed a single point I made. Yet, here you are projecting and posturing again.
Only one moaning here is you bud. I love how you can't actually make a coherent argument and just use name calling instead like the child that you are.
Nice straw man, nobody made this argument here. The fact that you're using this straw man clearly demonstrates that it is in fact you who are incapable of making a rational argument.
Oh thank goodness, I thought you'd never stop regurgitating nonsense here.
there's that "i know you ae but what am I?" thing again...
“DARVO is an acronym used to describe a common strategy of abusers. The abuser will: Deny the abuse ever took place, then Attack the victim for attempting to hold the abuser accountable; then they will lie and claim that they, the abuser, are the real victim in the situation, thus Reversing the Victim and Offender.”
I've had more intelligible conversations with ChatGPT
how lonely for you that you have conversations with ChatGTP
did ChatGPT help you write that comeback? 🤣
why don't you ask your friend? apparently you talk regularly...
Aww muffin, such an adorable attempt at being clever.
yet you just called me a "natural comedian"
https://lemmy.ml/comment/444974
Nowhere did I say that you're clever, but thanks for confirming my point here.
the point that you're easily amused?
Nah the point that you don't even know the difference between the words clever and funny. It really is hilarious.
how do you know? are you pretending to be a psychic again?
nah, I just know how to read https://lemmy.ml/comment/444985
all this proves is that you don't think comedians can be clever. or that you have poor reading comprehension. possibly both.
Thanks for further confirming that you struggle with basic logical propositions. Comedians can be clever, but that does not imply that all comedians are clever. Again, a small child would be able to understand this, but you evidently aren't. And that's what makes you a joke.
wow, you really can twist anything into what you want to hear, regardless of what was said.
there’s that “i know you ae but what am I?” thing again…
“DARVO is an acronym used to describe a common strategy of abusers. The abuser will: Deny the abuse ever took place, then Attack the victim for attempting to hold the abuser accountable; then they will lie and claim that they, the abuser, are the real victim in the situation, thus Reversing the Victim and Offender.”
now who's projecting? lmao
now who’s projecting? lmao
still going with that "i know you are but what am I?" I see...
still going with that “i know you are but what am I?” I see…
The Narcissistic Repetition Compulsion: Thoughts on a Greek Tragedy and it’s Cure by Dean of Research, Demetria De Lia.
You really don't need to overshare about yourself here.
and weren't you just accusing me of projection?
And you just keep on doing it. That was a pretty good description of yourself you linked there by the way. At least you are a little self aware.
and weren’t you just accusing me of projection?
I'm not accusing you of anything, I've just stated a simple fact that you continue to confirm here.
Narcissists Use “Gaslighting” to Control and Abuse
Wow, your maps are so persuasive!
I'm excited to report that I just looked at map of Kosovo, it shows almost the same thing! That region is full of people who consider themselves ethnic Albanians who don't support Serbia in the slightest.
I guess that means that you must support the annexation of Kosovo to Albania, by force if necessary, right? I mean, because otherwise that would mean that you are nothing more than a reflexive, anti-West stooge and there's no way that could be possible.