this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2023
961 points (98.7% liked)

World News

32367 readers
580 users here now

News from around the world!

Rules:

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

most of congress is in the pocket of big oil. So what are our other options?

Vote only for candidates against FPTP. When that's gone, we can just vote for candidates who are against big oil.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Electoralism isn't going to save us.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

If you have another option, you should reply to GP with it; I'm legitimately interested.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How many election cycles can we postpone climate action for?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Their unwillingness to act on climate change is a major (if not the biggest) reason we need representation. The Democrats hand power back to Republicans who undo this session's climate action.

Destroying the world more slowly by slightly impacting one election at a time brought us here.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (28 children)

I understand and support the sentiment: something needs to change. I just don't think that re-framing electoral politics will work unless it's backed by a mass movement of organised workers. If that happens, the question becomes, why bother with the middlemen? They can legislate for themselves without having to beg the ruling class for mild compromises.

Destroying the world more slowly by slightly impacting one election at a time brought us here.

That's kinda what I was driving it. How many elections would it take to abolish FPTP? We'd have to wait for that and only then could we think about voting in politicians who might do something and the system would still be dominated by capital. That makes a three-step process out of a two-step process.

Seems like a request to wait for an indefinite number of election cycles—the same request of those who say to vote for this or that faction of the capitalist party and one day, just maybe, conditions will be just right for one of those parties to effect any change. Too many African, Latin American, and Asian homes and lives would be destroyed while they wait patiently for the US to get its act together.

It would take too long to work unless you know of a massive campaign across the western world to implement FPTP. If it doesn't exist already, it must be built within the next year or so or the west will be locked into another four-ish years of no progress. And that's just for a shot at electing politicians who might vote to abolish FPTP. Before they even come within hearing distance of, never mind face-to-face with, the contradictions of imperialism.

Currently, almost all I see in the west is how to do business as usual but in green. That means denying progress to the subjugated masses so that USians can maintain their standard of living. Oppressed people shouldn't have to wait for the US to figure out how to tactically solve the world's ills through an electoral technicality. Round and round we'd go with electoralism.

At this point, there is one, single option: revolution. Anything else will take too long. Luckily for humanity, whatever the US thinks or wants is largely irrelevant. The world is revolving anyway. The only question for the world is what form the revolution takes. And the additional question for USians is whether they want to be part of the change or to ruin everything out of spite and self-interest.

The Red Deal may be of interest (click drop-down menu under 'articles'): https://therednation.org/environmental-justice/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While I agree with revolution, I don't think pursuing that is at odds with voting a certain way once a year. There's already a movement to eliminate FPTP in the USA and it has been making real progress. This additional step is necessary (within the framework of voting) for the other two steps to work - the second step keeps getting undone.

Personally I've been pushing for this since the 2000 presidential election. It has indeed been painfully slow... But it does seem to be getting somewhere. Not to imply we shouldn't be organizing outside of elections, too.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Can't argue with that.

load more comments (27 replies)
[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Democrats hand power back to Republicans

Only because idiots like you don't vote.

Democratic strongholds are making massive gains on climate change. Look at California. That's what happens when we get a democratic supermajority.

The federal government has had a Democratic supermajority exactly once in the past few decades. For a few months. And they used it to get us the Affordable Care Act.

Biden got the IRA done without a supermajority, but he's a brilliant politician.

You fuckers keep claiming democrats are ineffective or colluding or something but you haven't actually given dems a chance to fix anything yet.

Give us a democratic supermajority for 8 years and you'll be amazed at what gets accomplished.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Every assumption you just made was incorrect. But if you're going to start with name calling, then this isn't going to be a productive discussion.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If someone has decided voting isn't worth it to the point that they're trying to convince others not to vote, they're generally too stupid and emotionally invested to change their mind. Or they're a shill.

This discussion (and name calling) isn't for you. It's for the audience. People feeling hopeless and powerless who might buy into the "don't vote" bullshit. Voting matters.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You just called me an idiot who doesn't vote after I suggested for whom you should vote. What will your vast audience think of that?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Voting 3rd party is effectively the same thing as not voting. I mentally tend to consider those as the same thing. But yes I should have clarified that.

[–] quicksand 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

FPTP means first past the pole?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] quicksand 1 points 1 year ago

Fantastic thank you. I thought more places used this system.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We don't have time for that. Just vote Democrat, and vote in the primary.

Undoing FPTP will take a generation. I agree it should be done, but it's not the priority.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This completely ignores GP's point.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

No, I'm saying we can get climate change fixed without undoing fptp. Just give democrats a permanent supermajority. Much like in California.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How would you respond to GP's point that most Democrats are corrupt too? Nobody here is arguing that they're as bad as Republicans. But just electing them with no regard to their policy positions will produce right wing Democrats who will ultimately hold the same positions as Republicans, and then they'll split into two FPTP-supporting parties like the Democratic-Republican party did. We will have won a name and nothing more.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nobody here is arguing that they’re as bad as Republicans.

You may not be, but plenty of people do make this argument, at which point I start calling them irredeemably stupid.

But just electing them with no regard to their policy positions

Every Democrat is better than every Republican, period. Given the choice between the two, it's an obvious choice.

The time to care about policy positions is in the primaries, in local elections in safe Democrat districts, and in internal democratic party elections (which you may not even know happen, but I attend all of them and it's an excellent way to meet face to face with the people who in 10 years will be running your state).

And then, yes, when you get a place that's safely Democratic, you have the democrats split into a more left and a more right wing. But the new right wing of the democrats is the old left wing.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why are you arguing with (and name calling) people who aren't even here?

That's not a given.

Internal elections that most working class people can't attend is one of our problems; they're taking advantage of voter fatigue.

What you're describing already happened. Every Democratic-Republican was better than every Whig. And then the Democrats were bribed further and further right. If we don't demand that they make themselves easy to replace, then it will happen again.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Every Democrat is better than every Republican, period. Given the choice between the two, it's an obvious choice.

How is this not a given? With the modern GOP, how could you ever trust anyone who allies themselves with that party? Even if they're personally a saint, they're still allied to the GOP.

Internal elections that most working class people can’t attend is one of our problems; they’re taking advantage of voter fatigue.

Guess which states have implemented vote-by-mail? Democratic strongholds.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How would you respond to GP’s point that most Democrats are corrupt too?

Sorry, skipped this. I would say a) it's an order of magnitude less than Republicans, and b) democratic voters are more willing to hold their candidates to task.

Still a no brainer.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What does "holding them to task" look like if we'll ultimately vote for anyone with a (D) next to their name? Like, yell at them or something?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Primary them. Oust them from the party.

See: Andrew Cuomo, Katie Hill, Al Franken...

That never happens on the Republican side.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Ignore my above comment. I see now; your position is vote dem.