I feel so bad for Ukraine more than Americans. The vast majority either voted for him or at least not against him. But the Ukrainians? Them developing nukes seems to be the only way out of this

[–] halcyoncmdr 34 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

They had nukes. They got rid of them in exchange for assurances from Russia that they would leave them alone.

It's obviously more complicated than that, but that's essentially what it boils down to.

[–] NotMyOldRedditName 21 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I think you got that wrong enough it warrants a correction...

They gave them up for assurances that Russia and the USA would protect them if they were attacked.

Edit: that's why the USA is giving them weapons, they're honoring the deal, or at least trying to, not 100% sure on specifics, I'm sure it was vague on what protecting them would entail.

[–] HappycamperNZ 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

So did you.

US agreed to bring it before the UNSC, not to protect them. Russia has veto powers.

'93 Budapest memorandum off the top of my head if anyone wants to look it up and bring the quote forward.

[–] NotMyOldRedditName 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

wiki says

Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

what assistance would that not be if not protecting them in some way or another?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Strongly worded tweets?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

FWIW, my partner is Ukrainian and I asked what's the general mood in the Ukrainian circles. Apparently the unpredictability of Trump is seen as a potential positive. There was quite a lot of disillusionment about the fact that Harris would have continued with the Biden's approach focused on soft politics and weapons given drop by drop.

In fact, the general public was quite unhappy with the cautious american support. If some of the weapons were given much earlier and all at once, the war could now be going very differently.

I don't know if this is now building a narrative that doesn't make you lose hope or if it's the reality. For sure the vibe was for Harris before the elections, but it was definitely as clear cut (due to the above).

[–] FordBeeblebrox 6 points 3 weeks ago

American guy here and I feel similarly. Things are going to get bad for anyone not toeing the party line here soon, but the grunts in the mud just got the worst possible news and that has to be demoralizing.

They housed plenty of nukes for the USSR but can’t build their own (yet).Even if they did it becomes a MAD standoff between them, Moscow and a Moscow friendly USA, which is fucking mind blowing after so many years of the Cold War. I think they’d be better off looking to the EU for jets and artillery to hold the line, I really fear that we’ll start to ship armor to the conscript side not the volunteers.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If they want nukes, they better get it done before January. Otherwise I can see the future where Zelenskyy is tried in a russian kangaroo court of "Possession of WMDs".

[–] FordBeeblebrox 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Even then, nukes from where? If we give them any then we will absolutely retain control failsafe codes and the orange administration could just not let the warheads arm.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

This is referring to earlier reports that I've read that says Ukraine is supposedly attempting to build their own nuke. The USA or any nuclear country would never give a nuke to Ukraine, that would be an undeniable escalation and Putin can then justify using giving nukes to... say Belarus. Then any nukes launched by Ukraine against Russia is treated as a US attack on Russian soil, then Belarus would launch against the US. The whole point of no US troops on ground is so that US and Russia is not directly at war. US nuke gifted to Ukraine is even worse than US troops on ground, as that just WW3. In contrast, nukes built by Ukrainians themselves with zero western involvement cannot be blamed on the US (although I don't doubt Putin would try to pin the blame on "The West"). Ukraine would have to complete the nuke before trump takes office.