Hello everyone. I've been looking for a new laptop recently, and I was wondering what your thoughts were. This is what I want in a new lapop:
- Decently powerful processor for virtualization, compilation, and BitTorrent
- Easily replaceable/upgradable battery
- Upgradable RAM
- Upgradable storage (preferably 1 TiB+ NVMe SSD)
- Webcam
- Microphone
- Hassle-free Wi-fi (I'm tired of fighting with proprietary blobs that need manual installation and want something plug-and-play)
- Hassle-free Bluetooth
- Ethernet port
- USB ports
- Hardy frame (nice but not required)
Important note: Ideally the laptop will be compatible with Linux Libre, as I want to run Guix System on it. But I'm not opposed to using the normal Linux kernel if necessary (and probably will anyways due to security protections like Spectre).
I've been eyeing the ThinkPad T480 (specs link) for some time. What do you think? It seems to tick all the boxes:
- Powerful processor: i7-8650U (a 2018 model I think)
- Upgradable battery: 24 Wh internal + 72 Wh discrete battery
- Upgradable RAM (up to 32 GB)
- Upgradable storage
- A webcam
- A microphone
- Wi-fi
- Bluetooth
- Lots of ports (3 USB Type-C, 1 HDMI, 1 Ethernet, 1 headphone)
I do have some concern about the additional storage though. A Reddit user said this:
Just note that the T480 has only 2 usable PCIe lanes, so it's half the rated max speeds (ie, for most of the premium performance pcie3x4 drives, it's about 3500/3000MBps reads/writes respectively), so half that because it's only 2 lanes.
Found this out the hard way, ended up selling the T480 and going for a T14 AMD instead, because for that particular use case I had, high speed reads/writes were important. Was wondering why my 970 Evo Plus was so slow, and thought I had a faulty drive for a moment.
Lenovo acknowledges this limitation at the PSREF: "Installed M.2 SSD is PCIe 3.0 x 4 but run at PCIe 3.0 x 2 due to M.2 SSD adapter limitation"
https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDF
I'm not sure what to think about that. I don't like the idea of getting half capacity, but 1.5 GBps doesn't seem so bad, even if it could theoretically be higher.
Has anyone here used this laptop? Am I understanding the specs correctly?
This isn't specific to this laptop, but how do you determine which NVMe to get? I see lots of numbers and am not certain how to interpret them.
If you think another laptop would meet the above qualifications, feel free to point it out. But my budget is rather tight (250 USD max for the computer, preferably under ~200 USD if possible), so I probably don't have a lot of options with regards to newer computers, which is why I was considering this slightly dated model.
Bonus: I found this article while browsing. Looks like the Wi-fi and Bluetooth don't work…
that's about the crux of it. it's a widely available platform that can be had for cheap, the replacements and upgrades are plentiful and cheap and cross-generational compatibility (both from earlier and later models) is exceptional. some notes:
By chance are you familiar with the T14 Gen 1 AMD? I realized that it can have 6 cores and 12 threads, which is pretty cool, but it also looks like the battery drains rapidly even during suspend.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28088584#28088671
https://old.reddit.com/r/LinuxOnThinkpad/comments/lfc0ax/t14_gen_1_amd_suspend_loses_battery_fast/
But these comments are from a few years ago, so I don't know whether or not the issue has been fixed by now.
there's no observable difference between a T420s, T480s and said T14 Gen1 AMD, they all lose battery while suspended. the battery drain is endemic to practically any modern laptop that's not a Macbook Pro running macOS; even the MBP running Fedora has the same drain.
it's easily solved though by implementing
suspend-then-hibernate; the laptop sleeps normally and if not woken in, say, 60 minutes it hibernates to disk na shuts all power off - zero battery drain. once woken, it resumes from the disk super-fast, faster than cold-boot.Thanks for the detailed breakdown.
How well do those other models (T49x, T14 Gen 1) work with Linux? Is everything compatible out-of-the-box? And how does the CPU performance compare to the T480? It looks like the T490 has the i7-10710U and the T14 Gen 1 has the Core i7-10810U. Is the CPU performance ranking T14 Gen 1 > T490 > T480? (I'd think a bigger number means better performance.) Does the performance difference even really matter? It looks like these laptops were released 2018 - ~2020, so I imagine they're all close in performance.
T480 specs
T490 specs
T14 Gen 1 specs
I also found out that there is a difference between the T480 and the T480s. Do you have any opinions on them? A Reddit user said this:
Link to post
T480s specs
Overall, it looks like the T480s is less upgradable, but more comfortable. Is that analysis correct?
all Thinkpad models (doesn't extend to other Lenovo series) have exceptional Linux compatibility and support as long as you go a generation or two before the current one. there are some edge cases, like the fingerprint sensors on some less popular models, but if you stick to tried and tested models, you won't have problems.
the S-suffix models are like the Macbook Air models, they're thinner, have a single battery and have some more exotic materials used, like carbon, magnesium, etc. they also have one RAM bank soldered so that's an issue if you get one with e.g. 4 GB soldered, you're either maxed out at 8 GB if you want dual-channel performance or if you go with an additional 8 or 16 GB stick you'll have some performance penalties.
I have a T480s (here's how I got it) and even though it's less serviceable and expandable than the non-S version, it's light years ahead from the usual consumer grade models out there, everything is easily sourced and replaced, with detailed hardware maintenance manuals straight from the manufacturer.
anyhow, if you're moving from some consumer-class model, you can safely ignore the additional thinness as even the standard T480 is portable enough in comparison to the usual drastic-plastic e-waste.
as to newer versions, I was merely pointing out that you don't have to limit yourself to the exact model (e.g. T480) but look at other, similar models if you happen to stumble onto one. like, I got a T14 Gen1 AMD with a busted screen for about $100 and that's a vastly better machine than the T480s. it's hexa-core, way better graphics, connectivity, power efficiency, and since it's younger the battery is in better shape. the soldered 16 GB limits it to 32 GB max, but that's more than enough for my use cases.
@dingdongitsabear
Does any model newer than T480 has a dual-battery? Which models later than xx30-series has a working fingerprint reader in Linux?
@0xDEADBEEF2 @linuxhardware
I believe T480 is the last one that has two batteries; T49x and T14 def don't have any, possibly some P-series models, can't check now, but those are workstation-class machines with discrete graphics, so not in the same ballpark.
I don't know your use case, but the dual-battery isn't necessarily a good thing; apart from marginally improving battery autonomy (by like 20%), its primary use is you being able to hot-swap the second battery without shutting down the laptop. that (carrying around multiple fully charged battery packs) is a 20-year old paradigm that nobody uses nowadays.
my point being, going with a more modern platform nets you better battery autonomy, even with a single battery, and more computing power when running docked. case in point, T14s Gen6 (12-core Snapdragon EliteX) has but one battery but with 20+ hours of autonomy. that's obviously a vastly more expensive device, but even T14 Gen3 with 6xxx Ryzens can sip power while on battery and go full blast when docked.
edit: can't help you with the fingerprints as I routinely disable it on any laptop I have, but I seem to remember that all non-S versions mentioned ITT are good to go OOB.
I haven't looked carefully, but from my last search (approx. 4 months ago) I was under the impression that the T480 was the last dual-battery ThinkPad.