this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2024
1129 points (94.1% liked)
Political Memes
5599 readers
2294 users here now
Welcome to politcal memes!
These are our rules:
Be civil
Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.
No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Posts should be memes
Random pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.
No bots, spam or self-promotion
Follow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Sigh. They'd see the republicans win and move right because it's the right who won. Stupid? Yes. Damaging? Yes. Can you or I change it? No.
It's so illogical of you to suggest that losing to the right will shift them left. That's not how it works. It's not how it ever works. It's not even how it works in countries that have more balanced political systems.
And victory for an incredibly delusionally far right wing president isn't the left wrong victory you seem to think it would be.
Stop pretending that if the Democrats lose just one more time, America will suddenly turn communist. It won't. The route left comes through moving left, not lurching to the right again.
If you read the whole post rather than just the bit of it you think you've got a condescending answer to, we might have a more productive conversation.
The question was if your claim is that the Democrats have a policy of shifting in the direction of more votes, then why do they not shift in the direction of opposing arms sales to Israel?
Your assumption that the Democrats move policy in the direction of more votes (the one you think it's so "stupid" to not know), is directly contradicted by the evidence that the majority of the country are anti-war and they are not shifting in that direction.
Just repeating blind platitudes you read in The Atlantic is not an argument. You have to actually attempt to respond to what your interlocutor is saying.
I didn't say it was stupid to not know that the Democrats pivot right when they need to gain more votes, I said that it's stupid and damaging that they do so.
But it's also logical. Sadly, there isn't a secret leftist majority just waiting in the wings for that one extra well worded announcement from Harris so they can vote in droves and give the Democrats a supermajority up and down the ticket.
Unfortunately, it's America, and elections are won or lost in the song states, so it'll be decided by a bunch of "centrists" in Pennsylvania who can't decide which is better, loony right wing Republican policies or more moderate Democrats. If it's too "communist", they're scared of it, but if you can give it some good ol' American branding like "Help for Heroes", you can get away with it.
These are the centrist votes the Democrats need to win, but if they can win without them, they can afford to be more left wing.
The centrist's both sidesism is as reality denying as your own, but the bad news for you is that there are a lot more of them than of leftists, so the Democrats are only safe from centrist influence of the left wing folk show up and vote for the less right wing option. Your refusal to compromise is exactly how you make it senseless for the Democrats to chase your votes. You were never going to vote for anything short of communism, so you were never going to participate in choosing the president so your opinions cannot ever matter to the Democrats. This is, unless you're prepared to vote for them sometimes, you know, when the choice is particularly stark and the country stands on the brink of fascism.
Nice story, but none of it is true.
I've already provided the data proving that there is a massive pool of voters ready to vote Democrat if they renounce genocide, but further to that data, here is more data specifically about the swing state Michigan which is a key state of the exact type you describe. The 'uncommitted' campaign specifically promises thousands of votes specifically on an anti-genocide ticket and the potentially election-deciding Arab-American demographic have dropped in Democrat support specifically on this issue.
https://www.aaiusa.org/library/press-release-new-poll-arab-american-voters-evenly-divided-in-race-for-white-house
Your argument is just post hoc storytelling to provide a reasonable sounding justification for the position you've nailed your flag to, but it's wrong. You've provided no data to support it and the data that is available shows the opposite.
Edit: forgot the 'uncommitted' link https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68427304
You seem to think that I think the Democrats should both sides the Israeli conflict. I don't. They should absolutely stop propping up Netanyahu's evil campaign and tell Israel it can have military support from the USA again only when it withdraws from Gaza and Lebanon.
Where we disagree is the effect on American politics of leftists abstaining from choosing the president by not voting or voting third party. The more leftists that the republicans' online pals can convince to exclude themselves from the electorate through voter purity arguments, the more right wing victories they get and the further to the right the Overton window is pushed.
That's my understating too. What I'm arguing with these statistics is against your view that the Democrats will change policy (to the right) to chase votes.
I'm presenting evidence to the contrary. Democrats do not change policy to chase votes. If they did, they would be chasing the anti-genocide vote. It's easy to capture and it's even probably required by international law.
They clearly do not set policy to chase votes.
They set policy to satisfy their donors, then they just expect votes.
The only way to end that is to make it clear they cannot "expect votes, they must earn them.
And yes, I'm well aware of the costs of making that statement, 4 years of hell. But if we let fear intimidate us, we never achieve anything. No one suggested we shouldn't fight the Nazis because 4 years of war would be nasty. We did it because it was the right thing to do.
Democrats pivot to previously successful electoral strategies, namely those of the republicans. Sad, but true.
No. The Democrat approval rating among Arab-Americans used to be 74%. It's now 14%.
They have actively moved away from electoral strategies which have worked in the past. They've done so because their wealthy donors told them to. Against the bulk of the electorate, against previously supportive demographics, against key groups in swing states...
The Democrats are taking the very risk you're accusing us of taking (risking losing to Trump). They're doing so because they think they can just expect your vote. The way to stop them is to make it clear they cannot.
And elect Trump. Showing them that fielding one of the most worker friendly candidates they have in my lifetime was a mistake and they should go back to centrists because they only win in the swing States when they do.
If you can't vote Democrat when the alternative is a fascist who is proposing today to use the military against left wingers and promised his supporters that if they voted him on it would be the last election, you'll never vote Democrat and Harris would be entirely correct strategically to ignore your demands because there's always some compelling reason to disagree with political parties that can win power in America what with the electorate being so rabidly right wing generally.
In the trolley dilemma you would let the trolley run over 100 people in your voter purity to not support the death of the 10 on the other track. Inaction can be the worse evil.
You can tell me it's horrible and unfair and shouldn't be like this but the trolley is coming. Neither you nor I can stop it. No more than Kamala can single handedly bring about a ceasefire in Gaza in a fortnight.
So the plan is to just completely igmore the evidence and repeat the same baseless and unsupported claim. You might as well be reading prophesies from the bible. I don't think you personally have anything to fear from a Trump presidency, it sounds like you and he would get on just fine.
Bollocks.
But by all I've read so far, you'll ignore this evidence too in favour of your blind faith. It's like talking to a Scientologist. Pointless.