this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2024
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In light of Lemmy.World's new ToS regarding "unhealthy diets", here are some credible resources on that matter as it pertains to a plant-based diet in humans (self.vegan)
submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by TheTechnician27 to c/vegan
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If you're here because of the "drama", congratulations, I am too apparently. If you're also here with the position that a vegan diet is unhealthy in humans, I'm begging you for a toilet break's worth of your time. The contents of this post are wholly divorced from ethics or environmental concerns, are not here to "own you with facts and logic", and are focused solely on human health through the quoting of scientific literature. For as many of these as I can, I have provided links to the full text on the NCBI's PubMed Commons in the interest of transparency.

  • It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes [...] Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. —Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (2016)
  • Based on this systematic review of randomized clinical trials, there is an overall robust support for beneficial effects of a plant-based diet on metabolic measures in health and disease. —Translational Psychiatry (2019)
  • In most countries a vegan diet has less energy and saturated fat compared to omnivorous control diets, and is associated with favourable cardiometabolic risk profile including lower body weight, LDL cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, blood pressure and triglycerides. —PLoS One meta-analysis (2018)
  • This comprehensive meta-analysis reports a significant protective effect of a vegetarian diet versus the incidence and/or mortality from ischemic heart disease (-25%) and incidence from total cancer (-8%). Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (-15%) of incidence from total cancer. —Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition (2017)
  • The present systematic review and meta-analysis showed a 15% and a 21% reduction in the relative risk of CVD and IHD, respectively, for vegetarians compared to nonvegetarians, but no clear association was observed for total stroke or subtypes of stroke. In addition, an 18% reduction in the relative risk of IHD was observed among vegans when compared to nonvegetarians, although this association was imprecise. —European Journal of Nutrition (2023)
  • Adequate intake of dietary fiber is associated with digestive health and reduced risk for heart disease, stroke, hypertension, certain gastrointestinal disorders, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers. According to consumer research, the public is aware of the benefits of fiber and most people believe they consume enough fiber. However, national consumption surveys indicate that only about 5% of the population meets recommendations, and inadequate intakes have been called a public health concern [...] The IOM defines total fiber as the sum of dietary fiber and functional fiber. Dietary fiber includes nondigestible carbohydrates and lignins that are intrinsic and intact in plants; functional fiber includes isolated, nondigestible carbohydrates that have beneficial physiological effects in humans. Common sources of intrinsic fiber include grain products, vegetables, legumes, and fruit. —American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine (2017)
  • [R]ecommendations to increase fruit and vegetable consumption, while decreasing saturated fat and dairy intake, are supported [for asthma] by the current literature. Mediterranean and vegan diets emphasizing the consumption of fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes, while reducing or eliminating animal products, might reduce the risk of asthma development and exacerbation. Fruit and vegetable intake has been associated with reduced asthma risk and better asthma control, while dairy consumption is associated with increased risk and might exacerbate asthmatic symptoms. —Nutrition Reviews (2020)
  • Over the past two decades, a substantial body of consistent evidence has emerged at the cellular and molecular level, elucidating the numerous benefits of a plant-based diet (PBD) for preventing and mitigating conditions such as atherosclerosis, chronic noncommunicable diseases, and metabolic syndrome. —Nutrients comprehensive review (2023)
  • Consumption of vegetarian diets, particularly vegan diets, is associated with lower levels of plasma lipids, which could offer individuals and healthcare professionals an effective option for reducing the risk of heart disease or other chronic conditions. —Nutrition Reviews systematic review and meta-analysis (2017)
  • After adjusting for basic demographic characteristics, medical specialty, and health behaviours (smoking, physical activity) in model 2, participants who followed plant-based diets had 73% lower odds of moderate-to-severe COVID-19 (OR 0.27, 95% CI 0.10 to 0.81) compared with participants who did not follow plant-based diets. Similarly, participants who followed either plant-based diets or pescatarian diets had 59% lower odds of moderate-to-severe COVID-19 (OR 0.41, 95% CI 0.17 to 0.99) compared with those who did not follow these diets. —British Medical Journal (2021)
  • Current research suggests that switching to a plant-based diet may help increase the diversity of health-promoting bacteria in the gut. However, more research is needed to describe the connections between nutrition, the microbiome, and health outcomes because of their complexity and individual heterogeneity. —Nutrients systematic review (2023)
  • [T]his systematic review shows that plant-based diets and their components might have the potential to improve cancer prognosis, especially for breast, colorectal and prostate cancer survivors. —Current Nutrition Reports (2022)
  • The data discussed in this systematic review allow us to conclude that plant-based diets are associated with lower BP and overall better health outcomes (namely, on the cardiovascular system) when compared with animal-based diets. —Current Hypertension Reports (2023)
  • The present systematic review provides evidence that vegan and vegetarian diets are associated with lower CRP levels, a major marker of inflammation and a mediator of inflammatory processes. —Scientific Reports (2020)
  • Evidence strongly suggests that plant-based dietary patterns that are abundant in fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes, and whole grains with less emphasis on animal foods and processed foods are a useful and a practical approach to preventing chronic diseases. Such dietary patterns, from plant-exclusive diets to plant-centered diets, are associated with improved long-term health outcomes and a lower risk of all-cause mortality. Given that neurodegenerative disorders share many pathophysiological mechanisms with CVD, including oxidative stress, inflammation, and vascular damage, it is reasonable to deduce that plant-based diets can ameliorate cognitive decline as well. —Advances in Nutrition (2019)
  • This umbrella review offers valuable insights on the estimated reduction of risk factors for cardiometabolic diseases and cancer, and the CVDs-associated mortality, offered by the adoption of plant-based diets through pleiotropic mechanisms. Through the improvement of glycolipid profile, reduction of body weight/BMI, blood pressure, and systemic inflammation, A/AFPDs significantly reduce the risk of ischemic heart disease, gastrointestinal and prostate cancer, as well as related mortality. —PLoS One (2024)
  • In this community‐based cohort of US adults without cardiovascular disease at baseline, we found that higher adherence to an overall plant‐based diet or a provegetarian diet, diets that are higher in plant foods and lower in animal foods, was associated with a lower risk of incident cardiovascular disease, cardiovascular disease mortality, and all‐cause mortality. —Journal of the American Heart Association (2019)
  • In this meta-analysis of prospective observational studies, we found that greater adherence to a plant-based dietary patterns was inversely associated with the risk of type 2 diabetes. These findings were broadly consistent across subgroups defined by various population characteristics and robust in sensitivity analyses.—JAMA Internal Medicine (2019)
  • Our findings suggest that a shift in diet from a high consumption of animal-based foods, especially red and processed meat, to plant-based foods (e.g., nuts, legumes, and whole grains) is associated with a lower risk of all-cause mortality, CVD, and T2D. Thus, a change in dietary habits towards an increment of plant-based products appears to be important for cardiometabolic health. —BMC Medicine systematic review and meta-analysis (2023)
  • Not only is there a broad expansion of the research database supporting the myriad benefits of plant-based diets, but also health care practitioners are seeing awe-inspiring results with their patients across multiple unique subspecialties. Plant-based diets have been associated with lowering overall and ischemic heart disease mortality; supporting sustainable weight management; reducing medication needs; lowering the risk for most chronic diseases; decreasing the incidence and severity of high-risk conditions, including obesity, hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and hyperglycemia; and even possibly reversing advanced coronary artery disease and type 2 diabetes. —The Permanente Journal (2016)
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[–] TheTechnician27 14 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

Why be this way?

I'm not Beaver, but I think they're understandably frustrated at consistently being berated for trying to do good by adherents to a prevailing belief system whose widespread harm goes almost completely unchallenged by society. You can see that even this post in a vegan community which is nothing but a polite ask followed by robust scientific sources is at a 75% upvote ratio because veganism is so irrationally hated by society at large that overwhelming scientific evidence for its healthfulness is a target of disapproval.

is the vegan day-to-day so bad

Pretty nice overall. Food's cheaper, you tend to feel like you have more energy, you often end up discovering interesting and really great new foods that you wouldn't have with a diet revolving around animal products, and your GI tract works like clockwork. Super bizarre, that last one, but I can't not mention it.

made up pseudo-slur

All slurs are made up, but this isn't one inherently; "carnism" is just a way to describe the ideology "in which people support the use and consumption of animal products, especially meat. Carnism is presented as a dominant belief system supported by a variety of defense mechanisms and mostly unchallenged assumptions". (Quoted from Wikipedia because they summarize it excellently.) It's a way to challenge that the idea that "veganism" and "vegetarianism" are ideologies while carnism is just "normal". It can be used as a slur, but that's every word for an ideology ever.

I could be convinced to change my diet, but

You should know that vegans get this all the time. Because vegans care about animals and the environment (the latter of which of course helps the animals too), this comes off as "you better police your tone or the animal killing will continue, and you wouldn't want that, now would you?" This could work, because ultimately all vegans want is to see as few animals exploited as possible, but it can ring hollow for reasons in the next paragraph.

it's not even possible to engage vegans where they are

People very often engage extremely politely outside of vegan subs in relevant areas (e.g. posts to news articles about animal welfare) and are downvoted to hell for it, their voices drowned out by ridiculous, bad-faith pseudo-arguments which are easily debunked and regurgitated so often that there's a running joke about vegan bingo. It's frustrating to vegans when carnists have an absolute right to make fun of vegans as malnourished zealots whose way of living is often compared to a fate worse than death, is tantamount to child abuse if imposed on one's children, and is so tenuously held that they just need to "try a cheeseburger" and wake up out of the Matrix. But if they so much as speak out of turn (like what Beaver said is pretty tame in the grand scheme of things, right?) after being berated constantly for just existing, let alone politely broaching the subject where it's relevant, then this is why nobody likes vegans and we were right to make fun of you this whole time and just for that, I'm going to go kill a chicken and vegans are religious extremists.

I'm never going to subscribe to the vegan religion

Vegans tend to distinguish a plant-based diet from being vegan, as vegans stick to it as a way of promoting animal welfare, but more importantly, there are products outside of their diet such as leather that they don't consume either. So you're interested in a PBD, which is still a huge reduction in harm. People who haven't tried one often treat a PBD as a huge commitment, but as a hobbyist cook with not a lot to spend on ingredients, it's one of my favorite parts of being vegan. I have a really hard time making and sticking to lifestyle changes, but I consider it one of the easiest things I've ever done because I feel better, and I enjoy the food I cook and eat more than before. You might be interested in /c/homecooks on vegantheoryclub.org or /r/veganfoodporn on Reddit.

I am interested in the principles and the "how to".

For a while, I landed on the idea that I would be pescetarian and stayed there for a while. From a health perspective, a lot of the benefits of a plant-based diet also come with the so-called Mediterranean diet, and so that's what I wanted. I weaned off of fish largely for environmental reasons at the time, although I also decided that if I wouldn't want to kill a fish with my bare hands, I wouldn't want to pay someone else to do that either. And lastly, I stopped consuming animal products altogether after watching the Dominion documentary. I was never vegan because I was of the opinion that it only slightly reduced the amount of harm from vegetarianism and that vegans were bitter idealogues trying to enforce purism. After the documentary, however, I realized that instead of being 90% of the way there, I was maybe more like 50% if I'm being generous. And so I started cutting out animal products like dairy.

As for "how to maintain that", I think I had a good experience sticking to it because I was able to focus on eliminating specific foods and how to replace them rather than just being thrown into figuring out how to replace large components of my diet. While it is entirely possible to get on and stick to a plant-based diet cold turkey when doing it for ethical reasons, if it's strictly for dietary ones, then I suggest just cutting out red meat first. This is what I did, and I think it's a good starting point both if you're concerned about ethics and the environment and if you don't care about either of those and just want to be healthier.

The key to a PBD is nonperishable staples like legumes, nuts, seeds, and grains. Those can be paired with fruits and vegetables. For plant-based milk, I highly recommend Almond Breeze unsweetened (not vanilla), as I think this is about as close to milk as you can get without drinking the sweetened kind (which destroys a huge health benefit of switching to plant milk) or drinking pea milk (which is the best but is expensive). But if almond milk isn't your thing, the amount of variety for plant milk is so enormous that you'll probably land on something you like if you keep trying. I think it's paramount to have a wide variety of dry spices bought in bulk, because these along with sauces take what can be boring foods and turn them into something incredible. This isn't so much a concern for a health-centric PBD, but getting mired down in plant-based alternatives to animal-based ones (I think with the exceptions of milk and yogurt) is the easiest way to make it as hard as possible, because it's really not sustainable if you have any sort of a budget. Lastly, knowledge of what non-homemade foods are plant-based just comes with time, but if you're doing it for health reasons rather than ethical ones, the fact that milk powder rears its head in places it has no business being would be much less of a concern.

This is a great hook post

Much appreciated. I think the stigma of vegans as people physically wasting away for their beliefs ought to be addressed first because it's really just incorrect, and while there's a kernel of truth because nutritional deficiencies can happen if you're extremely stupid about it (fruitarians come to mind), I think a huge part of it comes both from industry propaganda and from something people can hide behind so they don't have to confront the ethics of animal agriculture ("well it's that or being healthy, so..."). It's possible to go plant-based and have nutritional deficiencies, but it's also possible to have a terrible, nutritionally deficient omnivorous diet. If done right (which shouldn't be a lot if you don't have some sort of medical issue; I supplement B12 via nutritional yeast and am otherwise pretty loose with my diet, and my labs are always great, even much better than before), you can easily be healthier than on an omnivorous diet in huge part thanks to the reduction in saturated fat and the increase in unsaturated fats and fiber.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Thank you so much for this reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this. I wish more people would read it as with your other comments!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Thank you much for the verbose reply. I think I have misunderstood the concept of veganism up until this point, conflating its fundamentals with PBD. It seems like the PBD is actually a byproduct of the concept of veganism rather than the starting premise.

That being said, I don't think I can engage with the "vegan community" in a way that is satisfying to either party. I grew up eating an animal protein every meal, but I don't feel like that's really necessary or beneficial in the long run. There are lots of good reasons to go PBD, but I'm looking at it like alcohol: I enjoy it, but I don't need to have some every single day. Cutting back (or out) is objectively good, but I'm just not interested in completely removing animal protein from my life. Maybe for that reason, a key problem I have getting comfortable in a PBD is I don't want to eat plants pretending to be meat or dairy or cheese: the ones that I have had are like if I described to a scientist what gas station cheese / butter tastes and feels like. I would rather eat plant dishes that are tasty and nutritious in their own right without a supplement sprinkle / other ingredients pretending to be eggs or milk or what have you.

It's not easy to get started building a repertoire of meals, but you've at least given some good tips besides letting me know I'm looking in the wrong place / barking up the wrong tree.

I will reread what you wrote again tomorrow.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Praise be the good faith interaction.

Indian, Ethiopian, some Mexican (e.g. bean stews), the Buddhist food in SEA and EA food (Thai in particular) are all great places to look for food that is "not trying to be" carnist variations.

Almost all of us grew up eating animals every day, I would strongly recommend the dominion documentary linked. It is not an easy watch but it is important to know what is actually going on. Unlike alcohol, the harm isn't just to you. The change seems harder than it is, realistically almost immediately you'll probably feel better (combination of health + feeling good about your choices) which makes it a lot easier.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I'll give a watch when the holiday weekend is over, probably not great content for my 2 kids under 4.

Favorite Ethiopian dish? Been wanting to try making something in that vein.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

TBH I don't make it enough to have a favourite dish, my sister does more than me and I just love everything she pulls out at family gatherings. I'm more Szechuan/Thai/Indian and weird experimental, improv food myself.

Shiro wat is pretty good. A thick soup made of chickpea flour (buy at an Indian grocery, everywhere else it will be more expensive and lower quality) thickened with nut-butter. A comforting and simple meal.

Everything berbere I've had is great. Actually making something based on that mix today but it's more a everything leftover in the fridge than recipe haha.

Sis makes some sort of peanut stew. Idk what it's called but it slaps, it's almost like satay in that it's a thick, rich saucy stew. Instead of fish and like flavours though it leans earthy. Good shit, may find if you look around.

[–] TheTechnician27 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Without elaborating further, I'll agree that no kid should be going anywhere near this documentary.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Yeah... I still get flashbacks