this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
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United States | News & Politics
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What would it take for you to reject both?
Much like everyone else who shares that opinion, a viable third option that doesn’t throw the election to the right wing when you vote for it
So, nothing. You may not like the status quo, but you'll continue to let genocide happen because you can't vote it out, got it.
Plus, the Democrats are also right-wing, just not as right-wing.
You won’t be able to stop the genocide regardless of who you vote for. And, from what I understand, you propose people vote for some third party that will never win, but leech votes from democrats so the republicans can win, right?
Yeah, that’s a really smart choice right there
Wrong on both counts, sorry. We can stop genocide, voting won't do it though.
What do to think will?
Organizing and directly contesting. Build up dual power and risk upsetting the current system. The Black Panthers did it, John Brown did it, MLK Jr. did it.
Can you be more specific? The examples you have 1) operated on a far more localized scale and dealt with domestic politics compared to international conflict between Israel/Palestine and all the countries involved behind the scenes and 2) The Black Panthers accomplished a great deal, but their overall goals did not come to fruition in the end. Racism is still rampant in America, police brutality against black people is still largely ignored excluding the occasional major outrage (i.e. George Floyd), and the American system is about as capitalist as it gets so the BPs socialist agenda didn't take root at all.
Once Newton and Hampton were gone, so were the Black Panthers. Most leftist organizing I see is unfortunately centralized around a handful of leaders whose followers believe are irreplaceable, which IMO is not a desirable trait for anything involving continuity. Everyone dies, some earlier than others, and having no effective contingency plan is a blunder so many political movements have.
Beyond that, government surveillance is beyond what we've ever seen before. Organizing political action, especially radical political action, gets shut down faster than ever and we don't often talk about it in leftist spaces because usually all that happens is someone gets their door kicked in, arrested, charged, convicted, and basically told "we've put you through one horrible traumatic experience, think carefully if you want to go through this again". We can beat out chests and say "I'm not afraid of shit" but I think the vast majority of leftists a) haven't been in prison and b) haven't a clue about what it's like in there. Prison's no joke and frankly I completely understand why regular ass people, especially those with dependants like kids, are extremely reluctant to organize in any way that could impact their employment/ability to support their loved ones. We live in an age where cracking a joke about Trump can result in a bunch of freak Republicans doing everything they can to get you fired.
Join an org, like PSL or FRSO, whatever it takes. Learn from the past and don't repeat mistakes, but learn from successes as well.
Can you be more specific?
You should read organizational and revolutionary theory. Capitalism and Imperialism are unsustainable, revolution will come whether leftists prepare for it or not.
Are you familiar with the history of the Black Panthers and their demise? Because if not, I'm really not interested in giving you a history lesson. Their movement failed because it primarily revolved around two people/personalities that, once deceased, failed to be replaced by anyone viewed by supporters as adequate. So when you give the Black Panthers as an example of building up dual power to upset the system, I have a hard time taking that seriously when that's not at all what happened.
I've read plenty of theory and I'm tired of leftists who have their head stuck in theory instead of reality. Are you prepared to go to prison for your political action? If your answer is yes, I gotta ask-- have you ever actually been in prison? Because I think a lot of chest-beating leftists, especially the way they conduct themselves to people that disagree with them, would be in very a very harsh reality check if they went to prison. And I'm not talking about a holding cell.
Not what I'm talking about, I am referring to the leftist movements you dissavow.
Sure. But I have to ask, does it matter? Like I said, revolution will happen whether Leftists prepare for it or not. The jailing will happen regardless.
So you've never been to prison, but you so confidently claim you're prepared to go to prison. Folks like you are all talk until you deal with some real shit and realize real life isn't as romanticized as what we read in books or see on TV. The fact that you couldn't even bring yourself to admit that no, you haven never been in prison despite claiming you're prepared to go to prison and claiming others should be prepared to take similar risks. Reminds me of men telling women childbirth can't be that painful.
You genuinely are incapable of answering any questions, and continue to try to use smug "gotchas."
I ask again - why does it even matter if I haven't been to prison if the jailing will happen regardless? We can't avoid the jailing.
What on earth are you talking about? The jailing from what? You're going on and on about some vague nonsense without providing any specifics, when I've given you countless specific examples of why people are reluctant to organize political action. Beyond that, why are you acting like jailing is something everyone will inevitably face? I swear guys like you watch too many movies and would be get punched in the face the moment you step onto a range with that BS.
So you either haven't actually read Revolutionary and Organizational theory and just said you had to dismiss my suggestion, or you have and disagree with it, and are pretending I am speaking nonsense rather than actually answer me.
Again, revolution is inevitable, as Capitalism's decay and demise is inevitable, as America's descent into fascism is inevitable unless we can manage to organize and build up dual power.