this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2024
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Sorry, but claiming that just shows that someone didn't engage at all with anarchist theory.
Edit - addendum: even if this wasn't true back then in Engel's days: Still quoting him today ignores all that anarchist theory on power that happened since then.
I have, I used to lean more Anarchist, until I read more Marxist theory. Concepts like ParEcon were extremely interesting, and could be applied to both an Anarchist system or a Worker State. I am aware of Anarchist principles of horizontal organization, and I think they are quite beautiful, but I am also aware that Anarchist critique of Marxism falls flat almost all of the time.
What kind of Marxism? Marx's Marxism, or that body of theory by his followers that even Marx denounced, i.e. ML, MLM, etc.
Anarchist's analysis of power has been spot-on ever since Bakunin predicted the bureaucratic dictatorship that Russia became under the Bolsheviki.
How exactly would Marx denounce Lenin? Or Mao? That's a supremely goofy statement.
Bakunin was not correct in analyzing power. If saying "states have issues" counts as being "correct" enough to only approve a system that has only ever lasted a few years at a time, you're intentionally missing the forest for the trees. The USSR was by no means perfect, but it was history's first true Socialist state and managed to prove that Socialism does work.
While he didn't specifically denounce Lenin or Mao, he himself exclaimed once, reacting to self-appointed Marxists: "All I know is that I'm not a marxist." That's what I was referencing.
Are you sure you read anarchist theory? Bakunin didn't claim that states "had issues". Here's a quote, for example:
The USSR was a state-capitalist state, where the bourgeoisy was replaced with bureaucrats - as predicted by Bakunin. If it were truly socialist, it wouldn't have taken away power from the soviets and Lenin wouldn't have abolished unions in favour of his high-modernist ideas.
That's a bit ridiculous, with respect to the Marx claim. Marx was attacking Dogmatism, not his own ideas. Post-Marx's death, people following his ideas understandably called themselves Marxists not because they worshipped Marx, but because they were working with his ideas!
As for Bakunin, he's a pure idealist here. His rejection of the state is based on the notion that the elected cannot represent the will of the people because they are not the people. This, of course, is wrong, as it assumes the people do not want someone managing higher-order decisions! Letting vast improvements in material conditions be held back because workers had representatives is why Anarchism has failed to last very long.
As for the USSR being "State Capitalist," that referred to the NEP. Judging Leftist movements by their structure as compared to perfect Marxism in a vacuum without considering the historical context is deeply silly idealism. You would have to do some heavy justification for why you believe a worker state to form a new class that isn't just vibes.
I'm not claiming he denounced his own ideas, but rather the people claiming to represent marxism. I'm not claiming that anyone worshipped Marx, but that they misunderstood his work.
No, sorry. Claiming that a state can work to not enslave the masses, just because "the right people" are in charge is the actual idealism.
Your claim about representation is wrong, too. Sorry. Anarchist regions have collapsed due to external military pressure. You should read a book on how well the material conditions improved in Catalonia. Sorry, your claims about anarghist regions failing to improve their material condition runs counter to reality and to the actual Marxist theory (that only the people can free themselves, etc.)
The whole planned economy was bogus. What do you think a class is?
Again, you claim that you know anything about anarchist theory and show time and time again that you don't have the slightest of an idea.
Yes, all of the Marxists have failed to understand Marx, it is in fact Prunebutt who resurrected Marx and got him to denounce everyone who used his ideas.
That's a deeply silly statement, please explain why you think Lenin misunderstood Marx.
I believe that elected representatives can represent those that elect them if you don't have Capitalism. Saying you can't have that and just saying "no, you're the idealist" is unproductive and goes nowhere.
Material Conditions did improve in Catalonia! Never said they didn't, that's a claim you lied about me saying, though I'll let it slide this time. A lot did work, but a lack of proper organization led to losing to outside pressure.
Again, you claim that you know anything about anarchist and Marxist theory and show time and time again that you don't have the slightest of an idea.
No. You've shown that you don't argue in good faith, at least with the paragraph above that request. Good luck with your vanguard strategy.
I do argue in good faith, this entire time I have asked you to elaborate and you've ducked and weaved, now that you can't duck anywhere else you run.
Good luck wishing for leftist movement to happen, surely another faithful will make it happen!
sure you do /s
Am I not allowed to make a joke? Your point was that since Marx dissavowed some self-proclaimed Marxists during his lifetime, that those that followed him and took on the moniker must also not understand his ideas. You have to admit this is silly and not logically supported, right? That's like saying burgers are chicken sandwiches, because both have meat in buns.
You are allowed. You overshot and now I don't want to engage anymore. If you want to discuss, adjust your tone, next time.
That seems like sarcasm not bad faith, there is a difference.
They misrepresented my point. Enough that I don't care to continue.
Marx denouncing dogmatism meaning Marx hates MLs is a really incorrect point. You'd have to think MLs are dogmatists to believe it.
I didn't claim Marx denounced dogmatism.
That is what you are referring to though when you talk about Marx not being a Marxist.
Marx died March 14th, 1883
Mao was born December 26th, 1893
Was Karl Marx a time traveler?
Yes. /j