goetzit

I do see what you are saying and I think this point is really the only one that has any validity to it, because the idea of this thing is that it should be as open as possible. I would of course say Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon, they should federate with one another despite being technically different sites.

But the issue doesn’t lay with Threads itself. Take Meta out of the equation and i’m up to federate with it. I think it might really change things with there suddenly have 10’s of millions of users suddenly here, but I couldn’t assume it would be for the worse.

The issue lies with the ruthlessness of the company itself, and its history of awful behavior. As soon as it becomes more profitable to screw over Lemmy (this will happen, you are always going to be more profitable if everyone is using your platform, plain and simple), they will. In my eyes it is not a matter of if, but when. Everyone at Meta involved with threads could have good intentions for it, I can’t say they don’t, but staff changes, and a company’s attitude towards projects shifts.

Meta has the resources to create whatever they want. They could develop something much more feature-rich than anyone could ever want, without ever involving or needing the Fediverse at all. They would own the entire thing, and would not need to deal with outside forces at all. So we have to ask ourselves, what do they look to gain from federating with us?

Using tumblr as an example, I really would not be as opposed to it them using ActivityPub. Would I like it? No, but there are 2 things that make Tumblr different. The first is userbase, tumblr is nowhere near as large or mainstream so while it would still be a firehose of content, it wouldn’t be nearly as unmanageable as Meta. The second is, well, tumblr is a joke compared to Meta. Meta is literally a household name, they have shitloads more resources than tumblr does and has a much higher chance of being able to fuck our shit up.

Regarding your example with Valve and Linux, while I see the point you’re trying to make, I don’t think it’s quite the same. In this case, as you yourself say, Valve stands to make more money if Linux users are able to purchase and play their games. That is their incentive to help Linux, without one they just wouldn’t do it. Those actions aren’t bad either, they are good for Linux users.

This scenario is a bit more like if Microsoft announced that they were working to get the Office Suite built into the Linux Kernel itself. Some users welcome the change, after all, Office Suite is used everywhere, so maybe this will make Linux more accessible to some. But other users are pissed, because they could just use Windows if they wanted Office Suite built in, they chose Linux because it did not.

In this scenario, i’d be more inclined to side with the latter users. There are 2 seperate, distinct pieces of software, and some want one to be more like the other, instead of just using it themselves. I mean, it’s silly really. You can choose to use either platform, why force one to become the other?

Seriously, its like taking a job at the local library and advocating for them to rent out a corner for Barnes and Noble to come in and sell books.

Someone expresses their concern for this idea, and the response is “Well can you PROVE this will end in the local library shutting down?? No??? I win!!!”

Do you have an argument?

I came here because I don’t want corporate social media. To come to a place that was specifically created to be outside the social media tech giant sphere of influence, and advocate for it to become part of that sphere of influence, is completely baffling to me.

Why does anyone want to federate? For Threads content? Go to Threads, its all there! Why does it all need to come here?

Why not just make a Threads account and use that? Why post here insisting we federate with them?

So let me ask you, what caused you to come to Lemmy?

I am genuinely interested, because for the vast majority, it seems we came here to get off corporate social media. If the first thing we do is invite corporate social media back in, what was the point?

Hey man, Threads is that way if you want to use it, but I came here because I very specifically do not have any interest. You can sign up there, use it all you want! But don’t fuck the rest of us over because you want to use both platforms at the same time.

And by the way, your cloning analogy changes nothing. The original dog is not in the house, he’s fucking off somewhere else. The bear is actually here, trying to come in, and you’re proposing we use him to defend against a dog that may or may not return. Ill take my chances with the dog.

Not what I’m saying.

You think its likely that every account expressing their concerns in these defederation threads is a bot? And it’s not even worth discussing this topic because everyone who disagrees is in fact actually a bot?

I’ve got some interesting real estate opportunities for you, have you ever thought about how much passive income you could make from tolls on the Brooklyn Bridge?

They might be bots, but I think there’s a good chunk of people who just don’t think about it, so they don’t care. Writing them off as bots won’t change that, but maybe we can help them look a few steps ahead and change some of their minds.

What is more likely? An army of bots has been deployed to astroturf Lemmy already, or people are just ignorant to some of these issues? Probably a mixture of both. But more of Column B I would guess.

Let me put it this way: advocating for Meta being federated with us is like asking to keep a bear in the same room as the family chihuahua.

Here I am saying “gee, I don’t think we should keep a bear and a chihuahua in the same room together. This seems like a really bad idea. Bears are pretty violent and this dog has no way to defend itself”.

Your reply is “Well bears eat salmon, not dogs, so i’m not worried about it. If the bear didn’t have good intentions, why would he be getting in the room with the dog? Besides, if he does start getting violent, we can just take the bear out of the room and separate the two.”

Nah man, i just like the dog, and I don’t need him getting fucked up. If you want the bear you can hang out with him outside, and have the same experience you would have had if he was inside. I get he keeps trying to come in, but I don’t see how its worth the risk to actually let him in.

The craziest thing to me is that people seem to be lining up to make excuses for Meta. We learned the first week of this migration that defederating can get messy, we saw it right away with Beehaw.

Had Beehaw defederated from the larger instances sooner, then there would have been no outrage in the community over it. But while Lemmy was seeing a lot of growth, a lot of the big communities were being made on beehaw. All of the sudden, people were unable to access these communities properly and they were PISSED.

Guys, look around! Threads has what, 10 million users already? We have like, a hundred thousand, maybe a few hundred thousand at best? They will no doubt have huge communities formed by the time they decide they want to start federating. The ratio of Lemmy/Kbin users to threads users will be 100:1.

If we federate with Meta we basically have no choice but to use the communities they host. People only want to use 1 community (the issue of duplicate communities is brought up daily), so they will flock to the largest one. When Meta decides they don’t want to play nice with us anymore (and they will, it is never profitable to let people access all your content completely free, and shareholders will come knocking), defederation is going to decimate whats left here. Personally I think the place would implode, and many would migrate to where the content is.

Right, I get what you’re saying and if they aren’t federated to begin with then I don’t think there’s any issue. The issue comes when you federate, get everyone used to being able to interact with that user base and that content, and then defederate. The end result might be the same amount of users on lemmy in either case, but i’d wager the reception at that point is totally different.

In the first scenario, there is only slow and steady growth.

In the second, there is slow and steady growth, followed by huge, rapid growth, followed by a sudden decline that would make user interaction drop off a cliff, while the content and interaction is still available, just on another platform. I’d bet most people won’t be interested in continuing to use a “dead” platform.