BlitzoTheOisSilent

But to absolve 80 million voters (a second time) by saying "theyre just angry you see, they dont know any better where to direct this anger to" is unfair.

Ah, see, the general vibe on Lemmy has been to criticize and shame people who didn't vote, and that's where I thought your debate was coming from. I cast no blame on anyone who either didn't vote or voted third party.

If we're talking the 80 million who voted for Trump a second time? Oh yeah, absolutely, fair game on that front. The only defense I have for them, which I think is important to understand for Democrats to maybe start winning, is that they want change.

And Trump, as shitty as he and his cohorts are, showed them they can change things dramatically during the course of a single presidency. It's shitty change, and many of them don't live in reality, so I've just been discounting them entirely. But it's still observable change that usually aligns with what they want.

Biden/the Democrats have made change, but it's not... Flashy enough? It's not enough, the status quo isn't enough for the voting base they need, and they need to adjust their platform accordingly.

So yeah, if you're criticism is of those who voted for Trump, I agree completely, I'm as angry and disappointed as you are (though not surprised). I just don't think it's fair to blame non-voters and third party for the Democrats failing to convince them they're worth voting for.

If we insist on casting them in the most unfavorable light possible to everyone, we shouldn't be surprised when no one wants to vote for them and they lose. Your time would be better spent targeting the Republicans with this stuff considering they are the people who want to kill us.

They cast themselves in unfavorable light, no one forced them to behave the way they have this entire campaign, or how they've behaved towards their own supporters.

They lose, and no one votes for them, because they don't show the American populace that they'll get anything done, and they don't campaign on anything beyond the status quo.

The Democrats are going to continue to lose until they acknowledge that people would rather the system burn than be forced to hold their nose and get nothing for another 2+ years. 14 million fewer Democrats voted this year than they did in 2020, that is not a failing of the electorate, it's a failure of the party.

Voting is a two way street. You've said repeatedly that we can't have the candidate we feel we deserve, or we can't have progressive candidates, or that we can't have Palestine because XYZ, and we can't expand the Supreme Court because XYZ.

Ok, so then what are the electorate getting? We're not asking for everything, I've never once said they have to run a candidate who supports every single progressive policy, but we can have something something progressive to believe in? Instead of "stfu and vote for us and maybe we'll move a little in four years if we feel like it."

The DNC can't have their cake and eat it too. You can't ignore a large portion of the voting population but still expect them to give a fuck about you. I guarantee you Harris would have at least had a better shot if she had a few progressive policies that differed enough from Biden and actually gave Americans hope.

Instead, they just leaned back on "bUt FaScIsM," dug their heads in the sand to any compromise within the party, and then fucks like you come out blaming the electorate for "not understanding the gravity of the situation."

Cool, the political party with millions of dollars in record breaking campaign fundraising, multiple national figures with national audiences to convey their message, and multiple A-list celebrity endorsements, they don't have to understand the severity of the situation and compromise, no no, it's us, the electorate, who are to blame, and who should've, how does Lemmy keep putting it, "stfu, grow up, and vote."

Real winning slogan y'all adopted.

Obviously the Democrats would do better if they adopted a populist message.

Then why won't they? Not can't, not shouldn't, why won't they? We're not asking for fucking gold limousines for every American, we want healthcare, livable wages, and better social services.

Why is it so unreasonable for the Democratic party to consider any of these?

I want you to answer that. I want you to explain to me why it is unreasonable for a political party losing to fascism to change their party platform. Not "tHe MoVeMeNt mUsT cOmE fRoM wItHiN," I want you to explain to me why a group of grown ass adults, whose sole job is to represent their constituents, can't grow the fuck up and adopt any meaningful platform or policy that will win them elections.

If we make the Democrats look like fascists who must be protested out of a moral duty, then we've done the Republicans a favor.

They did that themselves by refusing to distance themselves from Palestine, as I have repeatedly stated, and that they made very clear to the Arab/Muslim voters multiple times in public.

Choosing not to participate in a system you don't feel represented in isn't a protest, it's aligning your vote with who best represents you and your interests. If they vote for no one, then neither candidate could successfully convince them they were worth voting for.

And continuing to act like apathetic voters are just naive and speaking to them the way you do, why would they want to support your movement? "Your feelings are wrong, and you did wrong, but I forgive you because I believe I'm morally superior for treating the Democratic party as a cult."

Give them something to hope for, and they'll probably hope again. That's the Democrats first priority, and this status quo bullshit isn't gonna cut it.

If it doesn't, let's use the Democrats to our advantage.

I don't expect them to change or learn a damn thing. It sure sounds like a lot less effort for them to shift right than it is for them to move left. And seeing as how they're too lazy to come up with a better strategy than the one they keep losing on, I'm just going to assume they'll continue to move right.

I hope not, I hope this scares them shitless so they can understand what the average American goes through on a daily fucking basis while they gamble with our lives on whims of fucking hubris. I hope some of them lose everything material in their lives, like many of their constituents are about to thanks to their arrogance and hubris.

Let's see some of these silver spoon Liberal Elite who fucking know best live on $7.25/hr with no benefits, six roommates, and the fucked up society they've gleefully left us to rot in until we're needed every election year. Maybe when they actually suffer consequences for once, they'll give a shit what Joe Smith nobody has to say about their foreign policy, or their complete lack of cohesion or progress.

Hope their lives were worth gambling on the status quo.

You have every right to be angry, but your anger is pointed at the wrong people. Just like the elite divide the masses with bullshit culture wars, the Democratic party elite want you to blame your fellow voters rather than their unpopular platform and abysmal campaign.

If you can vote, you're a fucking adult. stop acting like a fucking god damned spoiled child.

I've seen this attitude repeated ad nauseum these last few weeks, from people discussing Harris with conflicted undecided voters. And your attitude and aggression is exactly what all of them received, and yet you all wonder why people may have stayed home?

People were vocal about their complaints regarding the Democrat's platform, and they were ignored. If democracy is so important, why the fuck couldn't the Democratic party adopt more progressive policies?!

Like, apparently it's completely reasonable to expect people to do what you say with no promise of even addressing their concerns, nevermind actually addressing, but it's completely unreasonable to just choose not to participate in the system?

You're not entitled to someone's vote, regardless of the circumstances. Stop blaming your fellow countrymen and women for not feeling represented, and start screaming at the party who fucking refused to represent them.

Stop blaming your fellow Americans for the Democrats running a platform so unpopular, 14 million Democrats that voted in 2020 chose to stay home.

Stop blaming your fellow Americans for the DNC hiding Biden's mental acuity issues for well over a year, humiliating himself (and our country) on stage at his debate before hastily cramming a candidate the party didn't have a say in, and running her on policies that their constituents were vocally against.

As a trans woman, you're damn right I'm fucking terrified, and I'm fucking angry.

But my anger is at the Democratic party, who decided that spending decades appeasing the Republicans and giving the American people nothing that they've been promised, who knew the consequences of this election and decided a 2016 rerun was the only viable option, who paraded Republican after Republican across the DNC stage while snubbing Palestinian Democrats from speaking, and then sending Bill Clinton to lecture the electorate about why Israel has the right to genocide Palestine.

The Democratic party had fascism at the gates, and passed all responsibility onto their voting base instead of checks notes listened to their fucking constituents.

So don't get angry at your disillusioned and apathetic neighbor, they're a symptom of the system being unrepresentative of the people for so many years.

Direct your anger at the DNC, demand they start listening to their base, demand that they start trying to garner non-voters with popular policies instead of moving further right to appeal to moderate Republicans.

Or better yet, send them letters regularly, like I plan to do, reminding them that all of the awfulness the American people are living through is a direct result of their entitlement and hubris. Maybe throw in their that they could probably get elected if they actually listened to the American people and ran on policy that reflected what they want.

But that's probably too radical, let's just keep blaming the electorate for wanting to participate in a system that represent them, not one that runs on "Please, we promise, last time we're delaying fascism/the other guy, for realz for realz this time, we'll totally enact all the laws, just give us more money you don't have and give us four more years." But, I'm clearly not as educated and smart as the people running the DNC, I mean, I haven't lost 4 out of the last 7 elections trying to run the same playbook everytime,

They just have to run a candidate people want to vote for, not a candidate people have to vote for. But they won't, because the DNC seems to think they know what people need better than they do. And their voting results this year clearly show that...

I've been saying the entitlement thing since the midterms! You're not entitled to someone's vote just because the other option is fascism.

And this entitlement has turned a large part of eligible voters apathetic. What difference does it make if you vote if you're always just voting for the lesser evil? If you're never actually represented in the people you're forced to choose between?

If you're going to be fucked either way, what difference does it make if the party in power is fascist or not?

And yep, plenty of people today telling me I'm the problem, despite the fact I voted for Harris. I just am also not naive enough to think the average American should be impressed by the lackluster campaign she just ran, and the Democrats botched on the whole.

There is again to much at stake to continue blame a party that is now going to prison.

And they have no one to blame but themselves.

I like how you refuse to listen and double down on this "Democracy too important, must vote blue no matter who" nonsense that, spoiler alert, clearly wasn't enough to drive Americans to the polls.

That's a failure on the Democrats, not the voters, and you're the childish one trying to blame the passengers of a car wreck instead of the ones who were driving.

I'm sorry speaking rationally and placing the blame where it belongs, at the feet of those who campaigned, sounds strange and delusional.

Tell me, how many people have you convinced to keep supporting Harris/the Dems with this weird, hippie, grand wisened elder schtick you're trying to make sound so thought provoking.

The options were Biden or Harris or fascism.

I didn't realize that in those options, Harris had to mirror every unpopular policy decision made by Biden over the last four years. She chose to.

The DNC chose to run unpopular policies, chose to not listen to their voters who wanted their concerns heard and responded to (not dismissed), they chose to keep Biden in the primaries well past his ability to govern/campaign effectively.

They chose all of this, these were their decisions. Decisions that convinced 14 million Democrats that voted in 2020 to stay home because they don't feel represented.

But no no, you're right, Democracy was too important for the Democrats to alter their message, or campaign on different policies, no no, you're absolutely fucking right, that is ABSOLUTELY FUCKING UNTHINKABLE TO EXPECT OF A POLITICAL CANDIDATE.

No, you're fucking right, the more I think about it, why do we even fucking vote, the Democrats know better than me anyway, a person living as an actual average American, hurting miserably under the current system.

You're right, you're a million billion percent right, guess I'll go turn myself in because I cost the Democrats the election by criticizing them. We can't expect change of our politicians, you're right, ludicrous idea.

I'll go check myself into a mental institution, that seems fitting since I seem to have this crazy thought that fucking adults can change their opinions to better align with those they're supposed to represent.

You're right, from now on, I'll just vote blue, and I'll threaten anyone who criticizes them in any way to make sure they understand that this isn't a joke, the Democrats don't have to fucking do anything, it's all on us voters, and I don't want to cause fascism again!! No no, I, the fucking average American who doesn't have a national platform or millions of campaign contributions to use to spread my message, myself and every other worthless plebian who forgot their place at the feet of the Democratic elite, should have known better.

You are a fucking joke, dude, let me know when the Democrats decide they actually want to represent the will of the American people.

"If liberals are so fucking smart why do they lose so goddamn always?"

• Will McAvoy "The Newsroom"

I don't think it's fair to blame voters when it's the politician's job during s campaign to convince people they're worth voting for.

Adopting unpopular centrist policies and aligning more and more with centrist Biden's policies as the campaign went on is just going to fill voters with apathy.

The Democrats, once again, didn't give us a candidate to vote for, only one to vote against. And I think the American people are sick of that carrot-stick routine, the Dems need to actually adopt popular policies.

And the establishment Dems are going to fight that tooth and nail.

"If liberals are so fucking smart why do they lose so goddamn always?"

• Will McAvoy "The Newsroom"

but ultimately the responsibility is on the voters to be competent, critical thinkers that at least attempt to be informed.

I disagree, it's a politicians job during a campaign to convince people to vote for them. I agree that voters should be informed, but if someone chooses not to vote, I view that as a failure of the candidate, not the voter.

You have the right to vote, you don't have the obligation (some countries do, and I wish we did, but we do not). And no candidate is entitled to a vote simply for existing.

Beyond that... Yeah, you and I are basically on the same page. I appreciate that you've been civil about this, and I want to reiterate: I do believe the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, by a long shot. I do believe they should have gotten more support, and I really wish they had turned out the vote.

But they didn't, and I don't think it's fair to blame apathetic voters when the worst option was "fascism," but the lesser evil was "status quo that you're drowning under, with a touch of genocide." Trump supporters? Yeah, they're... Everything they want the world to believe they are, they have no excuse for gladly marching into fascism.

But I don't blame apathetic voters for not wanting to participate in a system they don't feel represented in, and aren't inspired by either candidate to vote in.

Fact of the matter is, if you don't exercise your vote, and the result is worse, you exercised your vote badly.

I disagree, it's their right to cast (or not cast) their vote how they choose. If someone chose not to vote for Harris because they didn't want even their small part in the Genocide, I don't blame the voter for having a conscience. I blame the Democrats for not giving them a different option, especially considering their opponent.

I don't understand why the voters have to always sacrifice their concerns and wants, but the party doesn't. All Harris had to do was not basically mirror Biden's policy on Israel, and she couldn't do it. That's a failure on the Democrats, not the voters.

It's not that deep, just vote for the least bad candidate, and get over it

This is what a lot of the voting base is tired of hearing. Through their inaction (whether it's justified or not), Democrats have made the majority of voters apathetic. I say this because the voters aren't often represented in the candidates forced on them (Hillary and Bernie, pushing Biden in 2020, trying to push Biden through for 2024 and hiding his declining mental health).

So every election season, almost nothing has improved for the average person, but we're inundated with requests for money from the same party that won't listen to its constituents. You can't just spend decades telling people "vote and get over it," and expect them to keep giving a fuck.

i think the democratic institution is failing right now

We definitely agree on this part.

She was also appealing to the moderate left (most of the dem party)

And how did that pan out for her? The Democrats keep trying this centrist-moderate policy, and they keep losing, and instead of trying to go left, they just go further right.

Like I said, 60% of eligible voters don't vote, and you can't win with just the majority of your base (since you call them most of the dem party, and I don't disagree), so why are you trying to win over moderates instead of rally new support? Why not give a voice to those who may not be voting because they don't feel represented? (Not saying everyone who doesn't vote does so because of this reason, just picked one at random).

maybe they should, but in defense of them, running on voting policy, in a federal election is pretty fucking silly. You can't really do much about it on a federal level.

I meant more why haven't they done this at any point during the last few decades? But even then, why not now? How is promising Americans another paid federal holiday a bad idea during a campaign?

Voting rights have been a major topic over the last few years, where were her policies on enshrining the right to vote and stop these voter purges we've been seeing?

And all of this is to say, it can just be lip service. Trump lies constantly, and he does it to hurt people, so why can't Democrats lie to try to help people? No, instead they just try to return to the status quo at the first opportunity they can, while convincing their voters that being centrist is the only way to be a progressive.

so they can lose repeatedly to the republican party? ok.

Cause they're two sides of the same coin, boss. They have the same donors, they go to the same bars and clubs and restaurants and country clubs together. And miraculously, every time Democrats get power, we hold the status quo, and then the Republicans shove us right, and the Dems hold until we're shifted right again.

The Dems never seem to make any meaningful attempt to move us forward, and if they do, it's handicapped because they have to compromise and work across the aisle.

Trump/Republicans weren't wrong when they said people's perception of reality is more important than actual reality. People keep saying as a country, quantifiably, we are doing better under Biden than we did under Trump.

But polls and articles leading up to the election showed Americans did not feel better off, they did not feel like the economy was working for them, etc.

And Democrats ignored it and kept trying to shove their figures and metrics down our throat, completely disregarding how people felt, and just expecting them to get over it.

A politicians job during a campaign is to convince people they are worth electing.

Harris lost the electoral college and the popular vote. Harris failed to convince a majority of the electorate that she was worth voting for. That's it, that's the whole story: she failed to win over voters, and failed to rally support from her own party.

She became Biden 2.0 as her campaign went on, and people didn't want four more years of Biden. She showed no meaningful difference between the current administration and her own should she win.

She lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. More than 100,000 people protest voted over Palestine during the primaries there. Harris took that information, and doubled down on Biden's policy, ignoring her constituents. The DNC welcomed numerous Republican officials to speak at the DNC, the same officials who helped Trump during his first presidency, they were welcomed with open arms. But no Palestinian Democrats, including those put forward by the Uncommitted Protest Vote Movement, were given time to speak at the DNC.

And as her campaign went on, she proved that was more concerned with trying to win over Republicans (like Hillary failed to do in 2016, and Biden failed to do in 2020) than she was trying to rally support from her own undecided voters and non-voters. Less than 40% of eligible voters vote, so her strategy was completely write off the 60% that could he won over, and focus on trying to win conservatives, which required more Centrist policies, which just alienates progressive Democrats...

Anyway, let's see, oh yeah: 94% of registered Republicans voted for Republicans in 2024, the exact same amount as 2020.

No one was duped, you sound weird and strange talking the way you do. It's off-putting and makes me want to actively work against Democracy, because you're doing exactly what I've been describing: dismissing everything I have to say while condescendingly speaking to me like I'm some misguided child.

You need grow up and accept that the Democrats fucked up, backed the wrong strategies, and were significantly more unpopular than they thought they were.

It is sad how quickly and easily you've fallen for the fallacy that it's not party leadership, but the voters they're supposed to represent and reflect that are the reason why Democrats can't fucking win. Absolutely delusional.

I love this, you made me smile on a very shit day, so thank you for that.

When did voting become mandatory?

The only obligation to voting is your right to exercise it how you choose, full stop. It is not anyone's "job" to vote any specific way, this is the entitlement Democratic voters need to get over.

Yeah, Trump won because he convinced his base he was worth voting for. Harris couldn't convince her base that he was a threat and that she was worth voting for.

She did try to win over Republican voters instead of her own, though. 94% of them voted Republican anyway, just like they did in 2020.

But I'm sure you'll tell me that was the voter's fault too. 🙄

Edit: I brought up mandatory voting because it could be legislated that way, just as voting day could be made a federal holiday. And laws could be passed to mandate paid time off to allow essential workers to vote on voting day if absentee/early voting are unavailable. Or what if you were automatically registered to vote on your 18th birthday, none of this registering nonsense.

Damn, those are all great policy ideas that the Democrats could run on, or even implement, since they have been outwardly more supportive of people voting. Funny that they haven't done that in the last couple decades...

... It's almost like the Dems don't want that roughly 60% of people who don't vote to start voting. Wonder why that is...