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Living conditions subpar in a country fighting of a brutal invasion & genocide?
Get the fuck outta here.
In early August, deputies of the Ukraine president's 'Servant of the People' party in the national legislature ('Rada') introduced a bill that provides for the conscription of forced labor of all those who have not been conscripted to the armed forces. Formally free citizens who already cannot legally leave the country due to wartime restrictions will now also be subjected to forced labor.
This was really inevitable, yeah.
So uh, what do you expect them to do when invaded by a foreign army?
To be allowed to migrate and seek asylum because the people don't want to die in the front for a piece of land? That's exactly what I would want if it were me. Would you want to be conscripted for forced labour with the risk of getting sent to the front lines because of some war you don't want to be part of? And if you say "they definitely want to be part of it," then explain why the draft and conscription are needed in the first place.
No, I didn't ask what "you would want". I mean I want a million dollars, but wanting things is easy.
I asked what should they do? What should their country do?
What would you do if you were their absolute ruler? Surrender?
Well, if they're democratic they should let the people (in which case my self-insert would apply) decide what to do. But a reasonable government could, for example, negotiate an immediate ceasefire and acquiesce to the winning side's demands to prevent further bloodshed. Or it could grab teenagers off the street and tentative migrants and send them to their deaths. Obviously, I already know that the Ukrainian government and their NATO allies prefer the latter, but we shouldn't pretend there weren't other options.
Edit:
What would you do if you were their absolute ruler? Surrender?
Well, yes? Assuming I give even half a fuck about people's lives, I'd prefer a negotiated peace instead of this shitshow any day. Russia's demands aren't even that hard to meet, they're just dragging this out for profit at this point.
also I feel like ukraine should have just let the separatist regions be independent, and not try to erase them from the face of the earth
I usually don't spring that one on them because I'm pretty sure that a lot of Ukraine enjoyers don't actually know about the Donbas war. It'd be a while to explain, so I try to meet them in the middle a bit, but yes, that would have been the absolute best decision back in 2014.
I don't think that you fully understand what's happening. This is not Call of Duty. Leave any internal political issues until the end of the war. Right now, you're helping Russia.
He WANTS to help Russia... Don't feed the troll.
oh my god you're one of those idiots
So are we just supposed to allow (heck, even support!) Ukraine despite them implementing a system of modern slavery for their people, blocking civilians from fleeing, and forced conscription, some of it even slated to last even beyond the end of the war, because to even criticise it is "helping Russia"? Helping Russia do what, exactly? Look better than Ukraine? That's on Ukraine to be the big boy.
This is not Call of Duty, a war is waged for political reasons, and therefore the politics of it should be laid bare.
They are not implementing a system of modern slavery, they're protecting their country and fighting for their lives.
I'm quoting again:
The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to "ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law", in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law. Just such a proposal was recently made by Vadym Denysenko [...], head of the Ukrainian Institute for the Future and a former advisor to the head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Denysenko said, "I am sure that even after the war it will be necessary to extend the ban on men traveling abroad for at least another three years. Otherwise, we simply will not survive as a nation."
Please illuminate me in your wisdom, how banning people from leaving while conscripting them to either fight in the front or forced labour is not a form slavery. Whose lives are being saved by arresting people trying to flee the country?
Russia is bombing Ukrainian civilians non stop, but yeah, let's blame the West for bad living conditions. Unbelievable.
The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to "ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law", in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law.
How exactly is Russia's bombs the only factor in the Ukrainian government imposing labour conscription on their people? Surely if they're so democratic, they could've found some other way to go about fixing the labour shortage.
You really don't see how it's a consequence of the invasion?
We can go all the way back to Gorbachev and we won't find a single root cause of this present situation, but instead many different factors. But I see no reason to assume that the Russian SMO on the DPR and LPR is the sole, deterministic cause of this labour conscription, disregarding all agency of the Ukrainian government and NATO on their own internal policy matters. Japan might've started the war against the USA in WW2, but I don't think it removes the agency of the USA government from putting their Japanese-Yankee citizens in internment camps or nuking Japan twice.
What the other comment seems to imply is that all the issues there are caused solely by Russia's participation in the Donbas War, disregarding how the article goes in detail about how those things listed (such as the labour draft) are policies made by the Ukrainian government. It is clear as day that the Ukrainian government values retaking the east and privatising its property much more than the lives of the citizens they claim to protect.
It's a fair question to ask. Any time civil liberties are curtailed, there should be questioning. There should be coverage.
But in a case of a smaller country being invaded by a world power, their options might just be use every tool available or accept losing their sovereignty because a more powerful nation wants their land. And we also need to acknowledge that and say it out loud. If you don't think the war and loss of civil rights is worth protecting their sovereignty and the right to be a country, admit that up front. That it sucks, but that you think the benefits outweigh the costs.
My one question would be, was there a vote to fight a defensive war when Ukraine was invaded? Is that something invaded countries even do? I'm honestly asking the question. Because if there was a fair and free vote, and the majority voted to defend their land, then it seems like they're fine with it.
AFAIK there was no such vote, but even if there was it would not have counted the separatist regions of Donbas. That's the main issue with this war, it was already ongoing in some form long before Russia invaded last year, going on since around 2014. Since the invasion, the government has also declared there will be no elections and started banning or even arresting the opposition (like the communist party).
The situation of democracy in Ukraine right now is incredibly shaky at best, which is why a lot of people (like me) criticise the government a lot. I understand that it'd be hard to have a referendum on the initial marshal law, but banning all adult men from even emigrating, and sometimes sending those who try to escape anyway back to the front, is to me a serious abuse by the government. IIRC During the start of the war, they also relied a lot on volunteers for the military, but now they've turned a lot to drafting civilians, which doesn't bode well for how many people actually want to fight. But it's really hard to get proper statistical data from Ukraine due to the aforementioned marshal law.
Being in the military reserve myself against my will, I deeply believe that nobody should be forced into military service. Not only does it sound really inefficient to have uninterested personnel, but it also is a gigantic breach on a person's rights and can mentally and physically scar them for life, not to mention the risk of death.
boosting to make this appear on hexbear active
Lemme just summarize the comment section for anybody else who comes along.
Russian apologist: Ukraine bad.
Replies: No. Unprovoked war makes things bad.
We don't need to know what "bad" means, right? Ukraine is bad due to some magical inherent property, not because of instituting drafts and migration bans, right? I am of the position that the war (which wasn't necessarily unprovoked to begin) wasn't the main cause of those things I am criticising, the government proposing those is the one at fault. I think that framing is at least a bit more complete than just "Ukraine bad."
And never mind calling critical people Russian apologists, like one can't hold critical views of both sides of a conflict.
Would you conscript people to fight in a revolution against the bourgeoisie?
God we have explained ourselves not to be pro russia numerous times are you liberals fucking illiterate
the name
the post
It's like... Comedy?