Israel and Palestine Politics Discussion

355 readers

2 users here now

The sole purpose of this community is to discuss Israeli and Palestinian issues. It is not the place for hurling insults, rehashing grudges, or making up history. Any conversation that veers into the "if only your people had" realm will be deleted or locked right away. I started this community in the potentially fruitless hope that we may have a civil conversation about this issue.

Rules:

References to historical events must include a reputable source. The definition of reputable is up to the mods. Keep that in mind.
Articles from reputable sources only.
No name-calling. That's what DMs are for. /s
Keep it in English. If I don't understand the word, it gets removed. Obvious exceptions would be the use of proper names and references. For example, "wadi" when used to refer to a place is acceptable.
Discussions that are heading into the probability of becoming a flame war will be locked.
Repeat offenders will be forced to find another community.
Anti-Zionism is ok. Anti-Semitism is not.
Whataboutism is for toddlers. Try to grow up.
Posting articles about current events is encouraged. Posting the same story from 20 different sources is not.
Posting an article purely for the purpose of saying "Look what monsters they are" is discouraged unless it can generate an honest discussion. This is probably the most difficult rule to follow.
No calling anyone a terrorist.
No YouTube links. Some of us can read.

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

DevCat

-1

The transition from a Jewish state to true democracy will benefit all (mondoweiss.net)

submitted 2 years ago by psychothumbs to c/israel_palestine_pol

4 comments fedilink hide all child comments

all 7 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] JTode 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I'm confused. Every Israel apologist I have ever debated with in my middle-aged life has claimed that Israel is already a true democracy. I even went and read the constitution, and I mean, this was like twenty-five years ago now, but it sure seemed like the constitution of a democratic state, such as they exist in the world this epoch.

My confusion is both a feign and genuine. I'm a white Canadian, and have been informed that I therefore do not and cannot understand. I still try to understand what is happening when I see people being turned out of their homes, and I see that a lot, and they're rarely Jews, in that part of the world, these days.

The best explanation of things that I have ever heard was on some documentary or news report or other, and I don't even remember if it was an Arab or a Jew speaking, but basically my paraphrase of what the guy said was, "Jews and Christians and Muslims have lived in this region in peace for centuries. The problems started when all these Europeans started pouring in."

Now when a fellow Canadian tells me that "all the problems started when all the ________s showed up," I generally look out of my Caucasian eyes into their usually-Caucasian eyes and tell them that they're a big 'ol racist shithead. But when the _______s are my fellow whities, I tend to believe it. I am myself a White European, I might have mentioned that, mostly Scottish in fact, and what am I doing here on the banks of Lake Winnipeg anyways?

Well, as it turns out, us White Europeans, we fucking LOVE going to other places in the world and declaring them ours. And while we will splinter off into many Ethnic factions when left to our own devices, if there's brown people around, we always tend to glom onto those who look more like us.

Israel looks exactly like South Africa in the 70s to me. They had elections, right?

[+] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] JTode 1 points 2 years ago

I assume you support the current and recent direction of Israeli politics; as you look into the future, how do you see this playing out, as the USA empire continues to fade in power? When does some sort of social equilibrium return to the region, and what has happened before it does?

But I'm also confused by a few of your statements.

" in a democratic state, the world will decide "

In a democratic state, the citizens of that state decide things. And again, you seem to be a democratic state at the moment. The world will have opinions - and boy, does the world have opinions about Israel right now. The christian right has traditionally used you as a weird combination tolerance prop/prophecy tool but lately their nazi side is just bursting forward so they're falling back on the old bigotries and frankly, I doubt the USA is gonna have your back much longer no matter who gets in on what timeline.

"The gaza strip [voted] for Hamas[.] Perhaps they were not true democratic elections"

Perhaps yours aren't either. Perhaps ours aren't. Who's to say? Well, other than international rights organizations whose job is to investigate that sort of thing. I wonder what they've got to say about you guys. But them voting Hamas doesn't seem any different than you voting Netanyahu, from my perspective. You've both settled into a pattern of trenchant mutual vendetta at this point and that's a real bastard of a situation to get out of. Not that you seem particularly interested in getting out of it.

My country's genocide record is already rich and deep so none of what I'm saying is coming from a place of feeling superior; white euros like myself are a pretty nasty bunch. Just because we've got some distance from it doesn't mean the world doesn't remember, or see it clearly for what it is, from outside the bunker of war and propaganda.

They'll remember you too.

[–] psychothumbs 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah the only thing Israel can still point to separating themselves from apartheid South Africa is the existence of the population of Palestinians who live within Israeli proper and have the vote, if not exactly full equal citizenship. It's pretty much Jim Crow in Israel proper, apartheid in the West Bank, and the Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza.